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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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471–480 of 526 posts

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#471
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the leadership was mocking China's capability to build their own domenstic supply chain Well, ASML is primarily and rightly very concerned that once "China" has their machines they'll attempt to reverse engineer them, ignore any western patents and IP and try to build 'Chinese chip machines'. It's happened to many industries, from Lego to fashion to hi tech. Hell, apparently there's even Chinese Knock-off Movies. S…

ASML's EUV machines cannot be reverse engineered. There's over a 100K parts, several of them from exclusive suppliers. You'd have to recreate several industries from scratch or somehow bribe all suppliers. You will absolutely fail to recreate the parts at all but even then if you hypothetically would, you can't put the machine together as if it's just a few bolts. It requires a team in the know months to do it, but y…

> ASML's EUV machines cannot be reverse engineered.

Probably not as carbon-copy. But certainly important parts, or older versions.

ASML isn't just selling a millions-dollar-machine, they sell maintenance, support, upgrades, refurbishing. All these pieces are important in themselves, not just the whole assembled machine. Any single piece that can be reversed-engineered can be a danger to their moat.

This isn't just ASML, this is any hi-tech industry. I worked in power-plants, where ABB didn't just sell us gas-turbines, they sold a package, from Swiss engineers coming twice a year to help us tune them to "we now have these nozzles that make them 1.2% more efficient in hot weather, we can come replace them". Or the story on the HN frontpage recently, where Russian airlines are running out of brakes: just imagine being, say, a Russian factory that makes, say, brakes for Tupolevs and you can reverse-engineer Airbus brakes and start making them. High margins guaranteed.

So yes: ASML is rightfully very careful with Chinese competion and espionage¹

¹ https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-c...

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mexico example was long range weapons. If Chinese missiles were hitting American cities from Mexico (outside of the localized fighting), do you believe that has the possibility to escalate?

Maybe, but I can give a much more concrete example: Russia has nukes on Europe's doorstep in Kaliningrad which can reach Berlin in a couple of minutes, do you hear anybody in Germany, Europe or NATO whine about "escalation"?

Can you break this down? I don't follow.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strategically, if Germany gets too much on its territory the other EU countries should worry, especially France and Italy.

France has Mistral, it might actually be a perfect 1-2 EU combo, the French do the aesthetics and the Germans do the engineering.

Mistral will go nowhere. They will be bankrupt in a few years, and investors will lose most of their investments. No, it's not due to lack of CompSci and AI talent. It's rules, regulations and inability to find anyone willing to use whatever product they come up with.

They still don't even have a proper website.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#474
post #379
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t the US make regular use of depleted uranium munitions? Particularly in the middle east? Definitely seems nuclear.

Depleted uranium is not a nuclear weapon.

Tell that to the non-combat victims: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7903104/#:~:tex....

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but I can give a much more concrete example: Russia has nukes on Europe's doorstep in Kaliningrad which can reach Berlin in a couple of minutes, do you hear anybody in Germany, Europe or NATO whine about "escalation"?

Can you break this down? I don't follow.

TL;DR: Russia has Iskander missiles stationed in their Kaliningrad exclave (former Koenigsberg if Kaliningrad doesn't ring a bell), Iskander missiles can carry nuclear warheads and have a range of 500 km which is just enough to reach Berlin. Now add two and two together. Why would Russia station nuclear capable missiles in the middle of Europe without the nuclear warheads nearby?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older generation fabs are critical. They power most of the machines around us, and often pump out low priced but capable chips. I certainly am not contesting that. I responded to someone who seems to believe this is the great AI equalizer. This fab has no relevance to AI. And FWIW, Europe already has a number of much more advanced fabs! Intel is currently upgrading Ireland to "Intel 4" spec (which in TSMC land would…

Lets just say semiconductor manufacturing is the best example of regional competencies and global trade. Globalization has failed on many fronts and resulted in race to the bottom outcomes, but here it works well due to specialization. Having understood that, one can also see a core TSMC strength is that Taiwanese workers are disciplined and work long hours for moderate pay, a culture that European and American labor…

And/or Taiwanese workers should negotiate higher pay and shorter hours

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#477

Along with (hopefully) that french startup (Mistral) founded by the LLaMA guys, the EU is putting together the pieces they need to keep up with AI and maintain their ability to leverage their control mechanisms upon the FAANGS. Realpolitk wise they absolutely cannot risk regulatory capture to a few select firms on the west coast of the USA. Altman himself threatened (for a brief period) to cut off GPT to the EU after…

What does a low tech (for chips) chip fab have with AI?

Nothing, it's just hopium from people who haven't read the article, fishing for upvotes.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#478
post #56

Just want to share these relevant videos from Asianometry: How Semiconductors Ruined East Germany https://youtu.be/cxrkC-pMH_s Why Europe Lost Semiconductors https://youtu.be/5ZdmS-EAbHo Europe’s Lost Decades in Semiconductors https://youtu.be/PpSdytrNEBg It's great to get chip manufacturing back to Germany after all the struggles, even if it's not cutting edge.

Now if we also get back some drug manufacturing we might even be ready for the 21st century

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#479

I think folks here are missing the point of a fab like this. 16nm FinFET is space age technology by embedded systems standards. Nobody's expecting CPUs as advanced as Sandy Bridge to come out of this fab, let alone some bazillion-core 8GHz monster. The smallest transistor used in an STM32xx chip today is 40nm, and AFAIK that's reserved for the really fancy DSP chips.

Yeah. Up until recently my friend was employed in designing chips in this process.

But it's not like they're designing them exactly the same way as years ago - some advancements are not strictly related to feature size and IIRC these new-old chips are considerably more power-efficient.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#480
post #449

As I predicted, public money of the European Chips Act will flow to the big guys: https://pr.tsmc.com/english/news/3049 "with the final investment decision pending confirmation of the level of public funding for this project. The project is planned under the framework of the European Chips Act."

It's not like there exists any small player who can even imagine building a fab like that. All the small players in semiconductors exist by doing some particular niche like design or making some tool, but all of them outsource the actual fabrication - the thing that European Chips Act wants to fund - to someone else.
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