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A world where people pay for software

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Re: A world where people pay for software

#471

Post by manoDev »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #416
jarjoura wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have tried all kinds of value transfer systems for thousands of years. Giving someone "tokens" (ie. currency) to convert that into whatever they want, or need has been the most flexible version of whatever has come before it. What one person needs to thrive is not the same another person needs to thrive, so who gets to set what that level is? I'd be skeptical of any system where there's no opportunity to get a…

Generally the broad concept I work with is “community ownership of the means of production”. What this means is that you are part owner in a cooperative of cooperatives that owns the machinery you depend upon for your well being. Of course your community trades with others and you and everyone have free choice to vote how you please and contribute as you desire. There is no “enforcement” that prevents you from accumu…

> A world with community ownership of the means of production

You seem to be trying really hard to avoid the word "communism". Is it a banned word in HN?

Re: A world where people pay for software

#472

Post by throw__away7391 »

lend000 wrote: post #424
smolder wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it seems crazy on its face. And I'm sure those leftists you refer to didn't have a coherent concept of how such a system would actually work . There's no way we could just replace paychecks today with rations and social credits and have a functioning system. It'd be an extreme destabilizing change to a system we built incrementally over a long time to be self reinforcing. But I also have the view that people a…

You seem smart and it always amazes me how popular communist concepts are with smart people on HN. Didn't you have some assigned group projects in school? Perhaps some people are easily satisfied by carrying the burden of other people who they don't know and who don't appreciate them, but I'd wager a ridiculously high majority of value producers would not be. Humans are social animals, but we're individuals first and…

Even this is not a fair comparison IMO because even people who don’t mind carrying the majority of the work eventually often get tired and frustrated with this and in my experience this tends to happen at a similar rate to when they enter their most productive years.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#473

Post by throwA29B »

carlosjobim wrote: post #420
smolder wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are potentially other carrots aside from material wealth that can motivate people to do unpleasant work. Currently it takes significant pay to get people to do certain important but thankless jobs. We could thank them. A legacy is important to many people. They may enjoy an immutable commemoration of their work, if they're secure in a material sense.

The USSR honored their hardest and most productive workers with huge billboards and monuments to their eternal glory and legacy. Could you name one?

Well they were not that huge, but most of organizations had "board of honor" with photos and names of best workers displayed for everyone to see. It was mocked ("look at those idiots that work for free, lol") even before USSR died.

And monuments are only for the very, very few.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#474

Post by manoDev »

rootusrootus wrote: post #470
SequoiaHope wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet 100 years ago Peter Kropotkin asked, "Are we good enough?" (to handle capitalism?) https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-are-w... A single paragraph excerpt: "Men are not good enough for Communism, but are they good enough for Capitalism? If all men were good-hearted, kind, and just, they would never exploit one another, although possessing the means of doing so. With such men the private own…

Capitalism at least tries to use human selfishness to achieve a better outcome, even if imperfect. Could it be better? Obviously. I’m not convinced communism is the answer.

> Capitalism at least tries to use human selfishness to achieve a better outcome

Maybe you're not aware, but it was the socialists who coined the term "capitalism", and their definition has no relation with the one you gave.

The definition is simply: the system where private property of means of production allow the accumulation of capital.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#475

Post by abe_m »

SoftTalker wrote: post #162
ryandrake wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the very least it must be patched up with newly discovered security threats. I'd say at the very most it needs security updates. Too much software changes just to change. UI redesigns for the sake of redesign, cramming features that nobody wants so a product owner can get promoted, adding telemetry and analytics to chase metrics that no user cares about, adding annoying notifications and popups to juice "engagem…

On the other hand, the reality experienced by software companies is that adding features is profitable. Joel Spolsky talks about this in one of his old blog posts[1]: "I can tell you that nothing we have ever done at Fog Creek has increased our revenue more than releasing a new version with more features." It makes sense though, if software companies could make just as much money doing less work, they certainly would…

Time moves on. In the 80's, 90's and 00's entire genres and niches were explored and defined. Much of the software I use matured around the time that article was written, and the "new features" in a lot of software are so niche, that they are big enough draws to buy new software versions. Hence the move to subscription for everything. Microsoft office is a generic example. The company I work for has all versions from 2007 through current in use. There are no features in the newer versions that change how we work.

Many people I know in my industry have been looking to dump the service contracts for CAD software for 10+ years. No useful added features, no improvements in stability, and no service to speak of through the VARs. What is the point of paying?

Re: A world where people pay for software

#476

Post by drekipus »

ben0x539 wrote: post #465
askvictor wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, for sure. The only issue would be that I wouldn't be as interested in building an open source dishwasher for every possible (or even the most common) users/use cases, but for myself.

I figure someone is going to come along who's excited about adapting the dishwasher for their own use cases, since they also don't want to do dishes. Maybe they'll even have it support their social circle's use cases so they never have to help doing their friends' dishes after being over for dinner again. It's bound to happen at some point, right? There's a lot of people doing dishes.

> It's bound to happen at some point, right?

No. As a hardware hacker myself, the benefit and draw is the fun of it, I don't want to have to hack my own dishwasher and make it work to my requirements, not maintain it.

Hackers usually write very bad code, in case you weren't aware

Re: A world where people pay for software

#477

Post by throwA29B »

chadash wrote: post #28

The link doesn’t talk about the SAAS model, which is probably the most profitable (and ubiquitous) one these days. I know people like to rail against it, but I actually like the SAAS model. It keeps incentives aligned. It used to be that I might shell out $200 for a piece of productivity software. Now, I might pay $10 a month instead. The thing is that under the old model, a company was incentivized by make a sale bu…

I dislike SaaS very strongly. I will not repeat the "why"s mentioned in this thread, just add one that I haven't seen yet: SaaS incentivize doing busywork that is visible but not necessarily useful.

For example JetBrain's products: Oh look, we have changed our icons/ updated UI/ improved UX/ etc! We know that nobody asked for this, but it will be shoved into your mouth anyway!

Pretty much sure you can find that everywhere.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#478

Post by em-bee »

ozim wrote: post #90

I have a different take on the topic. People should not pay for software - average Joe should have all kinds of software basically free. Now you ask "who should pay for development", corporations, companies or foundations where people still could donate but would not have to. Where corporations and companies pay salaries and provide end users with services. Solo devs should not write and maintain anything without get…

i would amend that with "average Joe should have all kinds of software basically free under a FOSS license"

and how about "corporation should not be allowed to use any software without paying for it"? it should essentially be treated like a tax. if the software has no price, then the price will be evaluated by some metric. (could be lines of code, but also revenue of the company could be considered)

Re: A world where people pay for software

#479

Post by drekipus »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #441
TylerE wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something as a hobby as very different from doing what someone tells you to do, how and when they tell you to do it.

This is true but what does this have to do with this idea? Who says we need bosses and overseers to get stuff done? See: https://vorondesign.com/ "The original goal of the VORON project, back in 2015, was to create a no-compromise 3D printer that was fun to assemble and a joy to use. It had to be quiet, clean, pretty, and continue to operate 24 hours a day without requiring constant fiddling. In short a true home mic…

> Who says we need bosses and overseers to get stuff done?

I prefer being told what to do so that I can use my mental capacity on things I care about.

I do not care about making a dishwasher or a 3d printer. I would rather pay someone else to do it, and I would rather that person has a team of people under them who can help me with trivial issues if I come across it.

I desperately do not want to waste my time with a dishwasher or anything else in the kitchen.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#480

Post by drekipus »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #469
TylerE wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, 3d printers are a special case. People aren’t building a washing machine at home. That takes industrial machinery.

Yes and to make my vision a reality we need community ownership of the means of production, which would 100% mean access to these tools. With appropriate access to tools, bored engineers under such a system can get a LOT of shit done.

> bored engineers under such a system can get a LOT of shit done

Or they can go spend time with their families which is a much better use of their time.

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