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French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#471

Post by ElFitz »

newsclues wrote: post #397
skitout wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depend which kind of Neo-Nazi organization (they are illegal in France and most of them in France do like to punch people and say it), and co-organized with whom, and depend on what is saying these Neo-Nazi But for sure I do blame Neo-Nazi for being Neo-Nazi !

What about just regular fascists then? Do you blame fascists for violence, perhaps caused by communists?

A significant majority (67%) of the currently active low ranking French police force (not counting the retirees) vote, or at least declare they intend to, for one the parties that has historically been as right wing as one can be.

Taking that into account, one could have reasons to believe cops wouldn’t be as tough on protesting fascists, and that protesting fascists wouldn’t be as violent towards cops.

Though I’d be curious to see wether or not facts support this hunch.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#472

Post by naniwaduni »

oefnak wrote: post #468
Namari wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Violence. Is. Caused. By. The. Police. None of these, not a single one of these items were used until the police started indiscriminately tear gassing thousands of protesters, the vast majority of them peaceful. Five thousand grenades and weapons classified as war weapons used on protesters. It's obvious violence must have existed from both side. It's a bit obvious you're from the far left, just be neutral.

I hope you're kidding, but just to be sure: The average position isn't always right. Also, what even is neutral in this case?

You can ensure that the average position is always more right than you by staying on the left!

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#473

Post by ElFitz »

nolok wrote: post #183
yohannparis wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everybody that want a 6th republic are supporters of Melanchon's party. We have to be careful about this kind of amalgamation.

Given that out of the dozen or so "main political parties" he is the only one who wants that, and that when asked about their priorities for the change of France no group of frenchmen put that in their top 5 besides voters of LFI ... You're absolutely right that there are definitely some people who want a 6th republic but do not vote or agree with LFI, but for the sake of generalized conversation like we're having no…

I’d add that the mentioned acquaintances apparently aren’t calling for a 6th republic.

Just believe that the country is "ripe for it" because of repeated abuses of the, exceptionally large for a western democracy, presidential powers.

But people have been dissatisfied with that ever since the last constitution was enacted. Including, famously, Mitterrand, who despite his many earlier criticisms (describing the 5th republic as "Le Coup d’État Permanent" [1], which could be translated to "The Continuous Coup") was prompt to fully enjoy those powers once elected himself.

So it’s quite old.

[1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Coup_d%27%C3%89tat_permanen...

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#474

Post by stjohnswarts »

mistermann wrote: post #440
ilyt wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happens once it's accident, if it happens constantly, its their responsibility if not starting a protest at all would prevent the violence And if they put their label on it it's their responsibility.

Just because someone is a catalyst, I don't see how it logically and necessarily follows that 100% of the causal responsibility falls on them. This seems objectively reductive and represents ideological beliefs as objective facts. Maybe the masses are upset and this is a sign of things to come, that should be listened to.

Myself, I'm a peaceful guy, if every protest I called (assuming I'm a "leader" of cause $INSERT_CAUSE_HERE ) resulted in violence, I would not call any more protests because that would go against my personal values. So it's hard to believe a group is peaceful if every time they have a protest it turns into a riot.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#475

Post by lannisterstark »

sofixa wrote: post #421
pnt12 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-terrorism and authoritarianism go hand in hand, that's been clear since 9/11. The problem is that government us terrorism scaremongering to justify erasing citizens rights. It's completely valid to be anti-terrorist and prefer alternative choices to fight it. For example, in my country, both polices and tribunals are severely under provisioned. I'd start with imroofijg those budgets before passing surveillance l…

> It's completely valid to be anti-terrorist and prefer alternative choices to fight it. What alternative choices? France suffered multiple highly deadly attacks on it's soil, including two with 100+ graphic and violent dead. What alternative choices are there to prevent them outside of mass surveillance, infiltrating potentially radicalising religious institutions and shutting them down, arresting members of outward…

I see two comments in and we're already making excuses for authoritarianism. Never have I before seen people go "But mass surveillance, civil right violating arrests are good actually!"

"We gotta auth because there are no alternatives" has been used time and again in history to commit atrocities.

---

Like it or not, People don't just go around committing terrorist attacks everyday. I, for example, and many people I know, have plenty of equipment to do so if I wanted to (multiple firearms, potential explosives etc), but why would I?

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#476

Post by infamouscow »

bambax wrote: post #58
conradfr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday the French government dissolved an environmental movement (which I don't like btw), amongst the reasons stated[0] are that they leave their phones at home or switch them off, refuse to talk to the police when arrested, or even that they organize their protest over the internet. When accused of authoritarian tendencies the government usually answers "go to China or North Korea to see what a dictatorship is l…

The situation in France is dire and crazy. This will not end well.

It's been awhile since the elite were reminded how easily their heads can be removed by primitive machine and motivated populace.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#478

Post by flangola7 »

Namari wrote: post #379
ohgodplsno wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impressive mix of lies. The total value of items destroyed has been estimated to be about 8 million by the French state. While not a small number, I haven't seen the antiterrorist police be sent to the FNSEA's headquarters for their history of violence and destruction ever since 1960. It is part of their methods ever since their inception, but greasing some palms high up in the government certainly helps. >And given…

> Violence. Is. Caused. By. The. Police. None of these, not a single one of these items were used until the police started indiscriminately tear gassing thousands of protesters, the vast majority of them peaceful. Five thousand grenades and weapons classified as war weapons used on protesters. It's obvious violence must have existed from both side. It's a bit obvious you're from the far left, just be neutral.

Neutrality is often the wrong thing to do.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#479

Post by [deleted] »

zogrodea wrote: post #291
AmericanChopper wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macron recently said he was opposed to the entire concept of self defence, after a farmer shot a burglar in his home and was subsequently charged with murder. After that remark became massively controversial he attempted to walk his statement back and claim that he just meant that he said he was against the presumption of self defence (which seems to imply he supports a presumption of guilt in self defence cases). ht…

I can corroborate (for any lurkers and onlookers) that the modern state having a monopoly on violence is an often-accepted idea. For example, this is professor Wael Hallaq of Columbia University describing some defining characteristics of the modern state: "there are five form-properties possessed by the modern state without which it cannot, at this point in history, be properly conceived. These are: (1) its constitu…

[deleted]

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#480

Post by dredmorbius »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #8
midoridensha wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting; it looks like these people went to Syria to fight ISIS, and got this ill treatment when they returned. Why does it seem like the French government is always supporting the worst actors in any conflict? ISIS is (was) so evil and barbaric, they make Putin seem like a great guy. Why would volunteering to fight them ever be seen in a bad light?

The monopoly on violence is the central component of the power of the state. This case undermines that power as much as violence used in self defence does, and is being prosecuted as passionately as self defence killings often are.

The monopoly is on the legitimate claim to force, and is based on Max Weber.

David Runciman has an excellent explanation of this in the "Talking Politics" podcast which I recommend unreservedly: https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership>

(Specific segment occurs ~15 minutes in.)

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