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Why I Left Rust

jntrnr.com

471–480 of 880 posts

Re: Why I Left Rust

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you saying? ”Suck it up.“?

He is saying “be an actual professional and don’t bring a vocabulary pertaining to intimate discussions to the public sphere when what’s discussed is a technical conference.” It’s already barely acceptable in a purely American context. To me as a European, this is extremely off putting and culturally out of line which is a recurring problem with Rust.

You know, this pattern:

* Person is invited to talk

* Person asks "You know about X, right?"

* They say "sure, it's no problem"

* They talk in private and take decisions in improper venues

* The guy is slighted at the last minute, told it is because of X

... is an all too "professional" way to do it. This is how professionals will do it, when they want to let you know they don't like you. With a little deniability, but not too much. If what the complainant alleges is true, there are too much social skill at work here - skill at exquisitely snubbing someone.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No power over anyone is required. Reasonable and well-grounded arguments seeking to resolve conflict will do.

That requires either both sides to be equal in power or both sides to be willing to stick to the process. From the blog the author believes neither is the case.

The author was one of four members of the core team [0], "which is which is ultimately responsible for all decision-making in the project."[1] If there was a power imbalance it's because they were ineffective in their position.

[0] https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core

[1] https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/1068-rust-governance.html

Re: Why I Left Rust

#473
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…

Since micro aggressions are a thing number 2 is hardly possible.

That's not my understanding of micro-aggressions [1]. IIUC, inadvertently doing a micro-aggression isn't being an asshole, but persisting in it after it has been pointed out definitely is.

[1]: Disclosure: I'm a minority (disabled), but I'm also a white man.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#474
So someone has a belief that some feature may have benefit the language, and people are stating they are uncomfortable? I suspect (as complete outsider) there has to be more going on here and the "uncomfortable" people are not being sincere & honest.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#475
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting. First the thing with the code of conduct and all that, that I think distracts from the technical questions. It is important to be inclusive, as not to exclude people who could make valuable contributions, but if it becomes a topic of argument, then it becomes counter-productive. The second is the "rewrite it in Rust" crowd. I mean, no langu…

> While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting I have wondered now and then about how the Rust community culture might have damaged the language. In particular, I've said for many years that Rust botched error handling by eschewing exceptions yet including panics anyway, leading to a doubling of the error handling infrastructure (you pay for both error objects and stack unwinding suppo…

Unwinding is optional, and not available on all platforms that Rust supports (including WebAssembly). The language made the right choice here IMO. Lack of faillible allocation in the stdlib is a major issue, but it's also fixable.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s possible to characterise anything as a leadership failure because the buck stops with them. But I don’t see what they could have done differently other than all being available on weekends to troubleshoot issues like this.

If just one person inside leadership fails, that's also leadership failure. If that's the case, most likely the remaining leadership will distance itself from this soon enough.

I’m less interested in collective blame/punishment and more about “how do we prevent this from reoccurring?”

I’m not seeing any obvious solution. If one member of the leadership team does something stupid on a Friday, it can only be resolved by Tuesday or Wednesday. Folks are going to pick up their pitchforks on Sunday and say that “leadership failed”. Sure. But I don’t see a way around this.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#477

So this person didn't get to speak at the conference, and they quit? But their technical contributions are still being added? Did I get that right?

They quit because they didn't get a keynote slot. They were still invited to give a talk.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#478
post #418

I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…

> No organisation should be "called out" for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation unless that organisation is in fact discriminatory. I don't think you're being very reasonable here. A lack of diversity is just a piece of data: it might be complete coincidence, or it might be related to some underlying bias or discrimination. "Calling out" a lack of diversity is just bringing attention to that piece of data.…

I'll risk the downvotes then.

> A lack of diversity is just a piece of data: it might be complete coincidence, or it might be related to some underlying bias or discrimination.

I say it's a coincidence. I've known racist people but they were an overwhelming minority and had no power. Let's stop there. Find me a systemic racist in a position of power where I work or participate in local events and I promise I'll fight to eject them from their place of power. Done. Discussion should be over at this point: let's have actionable steps. We don't have them? Let's do something else.

"Might be related to some underlying bias or discrimination" is not a convincing thing to say. Going witch-hunting for witches that are 90% likely to not even exist is unproductive. The Sun's magnetic storms might influence our moods, that too falls in the "it might" category, but I don't base my life decisions on it.

> "Calling out" a lack of diversity is just bringing attention to that piece of data

A lot of people have been "bringing up attention" to many things. What are you doing to help? I had a few technical talks held in my city and in one occasion I insisted the discussion after the talk be in English and not my native tongue because we had just two English-speaking participants in the audience. I am helping in practical terms. Are you helping practically?

Many people in more privileged countries are completely blind to the fact that "raising awareness" is being done ever since the 1970s yet very little progress has been made in many areas (happily racism and sexism were reduced, which is good!). When are you going to understand that somebody at one point should actively do something about the problems and stop "raising awareness" until the heat death of the Universe?

Many people are quite aware of a ton of problems, believe me. I go outside and talk to people of many nationalities and races. The people willing to do something outside virtue-signalling are very few and far between though, sadly. And you strike me as a virtue-signaller.

I realize my tone is a bit combative but honestly, it's getting tiring and at one point I find it hard to talk entirely calmly when the other side of the discussion is content to only repeat the same things like a broken record.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dog whistle. What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen, and he's noping out for that eminently understandable reason. But if he said that in no uncertain terms (as a European very well might in similar circumstances!) he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. Hence this we…

> What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen [...] But if he said that in no uncertain terms [...] he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. So they need reverse psychology to express anger at injustice because of the Code of Conduct? What is this world we're building?

Maybe the one he wept at helping to create.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the deal with trademarks and rust? See a lot of people talking about it...

The Rust Foundation used a (per their excuse) "boilerplate" trademark policy. Somehow, a "boilerplate" trademark policy included terms about bearing arms (which has nothing to do with trademark, and is a concerning overreach regardless of how you feel about firearms) and other nonsense. The bullshit extended to "allowing" the community to use Ferris (to be clear, Ferris was already public domain and they had no say o…

Weird thanks for filling me in. Uh yea I had no idea... Ferris is the little crab right?
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