Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bluesky is a Twitter-like platform like Mastodon, so the comparison makes sense if you look at the primary implementations. SSB is also decentralised, while ATProto is federated - like ActivityPub.
User Identity in ATProto is decentralized, it's meant to use W3C DIDs. That's actually one of the things that bugs me about ActivityPub... unless I'm running my own one-single-user instance I won't have control over my own identity. It's also very weird how even on a supposedly "federated" system the only way to ensure you can access content from all instances (even if they differ in philosophy or are on opposite sid…
The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
471–480 of 493 posts
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#472Earlier quoted context omitted.
Reading this I hear someone passionate about technology for the sake of technology. Which is cool, I totally get the desire to build things oneself, but it doesn't really address the substantive questions people are asking about AT: An open protocol exists that broadly does what you want to do. That protocol is stable and widely used. That in itself, regardless of the quality of the protocol, already represents an OK…
> If you're going to go NIH your replacement needs to not just be better but substantially better, and you should also show understanding of the original open spec. I just disagree with this in principle. I wonder what the tech equivalent of "laissez faire" would be. To this day I don't understand how anyone in the tech world thinks they can make a single demand of anyone else. Even as a customer I believe you can re…
That you have no legal basis to enforce those demands does not mean that you cannot make them. They can be ignored of course but they may not be. Not all interactions have to be governed by a literal contract as opposed to a social contract.
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
Reading this I hear someone passionate about technology for the sake of technology. Which is cool, I totally get the desire to build things oneself, but it doesn't really address the substantive questions people are asking about AT: An open protocol exists that broadly does what you want to do. That protocol is stable and widely used. That in itself, regardless of the quality of the protocol, already represents an OK…
There's a growing base of users who have reached the epiphany (by multiple paths) that both identities & content-addressing MUST be cryptographically-rooted, or else users' privacy & communications will remain at the mercy of feudal centralizers with endless strong incentives to work against their interests. For such users, any offering without these is a non-starter, dead-on-arrival. People with resistance to this e…
Crytography and security in general are often cargo-culted without any consideration for the negative implications.
> this cryptoepiphan
Bro are you for real.
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
After logging in to Brutaldon, click the Search button at the top, paste the URL of the thread into the field, and submit the form. The Mastodon post appears. Click the "thread" link to expand the entire thread.
So... I have to go to a different Mastodon instance, create an account, use it to log in here. And then I can see the thread "painlessly"?
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#475Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not incompatible with how ActivityPub works at all. The ActivityPub spec says that object id's should be https URI's, not that they must . The underlying ActivityStreams spec just requires them to be unique. All that's needed to provide full portability without a "transfer" is for an implementation to use URI's to e.g. DID's, or any other distributed URI scheme. Optionally, if you want full backwards compatibili…
> the main challenge there is not the spec but getting buying from at least Mastodon Which is why promoting a new competing and incompatible protocol is a good way to push for change. You want Microsoft to become more open? Then start promoting a pure FLOSS alternative until they can't ignore it anymore.
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The protocol formerly known as Strudel"?
Fetus
I can also see the term becoming controversial such male and female vs. plug and socket. Some see the former as blatantly sexual and the latter requiring dirty mind to be sexual.
Maybe it's best to hold off on that reference until we get more voices to chime in.
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#477Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know what AT is doing but I can say that while JSON Schema is okay as a validation schema it is less okay as codegen schema. I don't know if there is a fundamental divide between these two uses but in JSON Schema there is definitely an impedance mismatch. For example, the JSON Schema structures: `anyOf`, `oneOf` and `allOf` are fairly clear when applied toward validation. But how do you map these to generatin…
There's indeed few languages that can model all of JSON Schema in their type system. Typescript comes close. However, you can just use a subset as you said. I don't really understand why this is a problem. Unless you're using things like Haskell, Julia, or Shapeless Scala, you generally accept that not everything is modeled at the type level. I don't know the nuances of the C++ types you mentioned, but I have not enc…
What I wanted to express is that using JSON Schema (or any such) for validation encounters a many-to-one mapping from multiple possible types across any/all given programming languages to a single JSON Schema form. That is, instances of multiple programming language types may be serialized to JSON such that their data may be validated according to a single, common JSON Schema form. This is fine, no problem.
OTOH, using JSON Schema (or any such) for codegen reverses that mapping to be one-to-many. It is this that leads to ambiguity and problems.
Restricting to a subset of JSON Schema is only goes so far. For example, we can not discard JSON Schema `object` as it is too fundamental. But, given a simple `object` schema that happens to specify all properties have a common type `T` it is ambiguous to generate C++'s `class` or `struct` or a `std::map`. Likewise, a JSON Schema `array` can be mapped to a large set of possible collection types.
To fight the ambiguity, one possibility is to augment the schema with language-specific information. At least, if we have a JSON Schema `object` we may add a (non `required`) property to provide a hint. Eg, we may add `cpp_type` propety. Then, typically, the overhead of using a codegen schema is only beneficial if we will generate code in multiple languages. So, this type hinting approach means growing our hints to include a `java_type`, `python_type`, etc. This is minor overhead compared to writing language types in "long hand" but still somewhat unsatisfying. With enough type-theory expertise (which I lack) perhaps it is possible to abstractly and precisely name the desired type which then codegen for each language can implement without ambiguity. But, given the wealth of types, even sticking with just a programming language's standard library, this abstraction may be fraught with complication. I think of the remaining ambiguity between specifying use of C++'s `std::map` vs `std::unordered_map` given an abstract type hint of, say, `associative_array`. Or `std::array`, `std::list`, `std::vector`, `std::tuple` if given a JSON Schema `array`).
I don't think this is a failing of JSON Schema per se but is an inherent problem for any codegen schema to confront. Something new must enter the picture to remove the ambiguity. In (my) practice, this ambiguity is killed simply by making limiting choices in the implementation of the codegen. This is fine until it isn't and the user says, "what do you mean I can't generate a `std::map`!". Ask me how I know. :)
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#478Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. As much as the k-based KDE app names might look or sound silly, they're mostly quite searchable due to being a tad different.
They might be searchable on the wider internet if you’re looking for info on them, but I can never remember them when I need them on the actual system.
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think it's "not in good faith" to say "I made a real substantial effort to understand this, and am trying to describe it accurately; if at this point my descriptions don't match the reality, it's not my fault but that of the people who made it impossible to understand". (Of course it's perfectly possible, for all I know, that SW is not debating in good faith. But what you quote doesn't look to me like an admi…
I don't see what charitable take could possibly be made wrt "I don't care if I'm spreading FUD" even with all these caveats.
"I put as much effort in as can reasonably be expected; I tried to evaluate it fairly; but the documentation and supporting code is so bad that I may have made mistakes. If so, blame them for making it impossible to evaluate fairly, not me for falling over their tripwires."
If something is badly documented and badly implemented, then I think it's OK to say "I think this is badly designed" even if you found it incomprehensible enough that you aren't completely certain that some of what looks like bad design is actually bad explanation.
If some of the faults you think you see are in fact "only" bad documentation, then in some sense you're "spreading FUD". But after putting in a certain amount of effort, I think it's reasonable to say: I've tried to understand it, I've done my best, and they've made that unreasonably difficult; any mistakes in my account of what they did are their fault, not mine.
(I should reiterate that I haven't myself looked at the AT protocol or Bluesky's code or anything, and I don't know how much effort SW actually put in or how skilled SW actually is. It is consistent with what I know for SW to be just maliciously or incompetently spreading FUD, and I am not saying that that would be OK. Only that what SW is admitting to -- making a reasonable best effort, and possibly getting things wrong because the protocol is badly documented -- is not a bad thing even when described with the words "I don't care if I'm spreading FUD".)
Re: The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of shit
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
So... I have to go to a different Mastodon instance, create an account, use it to log in here. And then I can see the thread "painlessly"?
It's no better for twitter. You have to use a community fronted and hope it hasn't been rate limited. Then you can't even reply. Very painless.