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There is no A.I.

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471–480 of 523 posts

Re: There is no A.I.

#471

My cynical AI opinion is that if it truly was revolutionary, we would be seeing private companies or governments use it internally to massively boost their productivity or achieve otherwise impossible feats. Instead, all we're seeing are consumer products or half-baked integrations that are another way to further centralize data collection. Talks about all-powerful, malevolent AI or requesting to halt AI development…

Say hypothetically that it was a prefect duplicate of a human brain. That would certainly be called a truly revolutionary accomplishment, but that duplicate wouldn't be expected to massively boost productivity any more than adding another human would.

If a GPT model (+ associated cheap software wrapper like LangChain etc) was hypothetically as good/productive as a qualified human engaged in remote work, that would massively boost productivity. The reason is because no matter how much it costs to run such a model at inference, it isn't going to cost anywhere near as much as the ~million dollars required from society to raise a human infant until they're capable of that same level of productivity (in the developed world), plus the ongoing cost of wages. What that means is that once you find a "good worker" model, you don't need to go on an expensive hiring spree, all you need to do is change the number of instances you're using from 1 to whatever number is most optimal for you. You could employ thousands of new people at a guaranteed level of quality within a day.

From the point of view of the organisation building said agents, this would get a lot more extreme. You have all of the above benefits, except you're only paying for electricity and amortised hardware costs rather than someone else's profit. But you can also work on improving the hypothetical human-level agents. If you can optimise their compute costs at runtime and we're accepting the premise that they're as good as a qualified human, then you can get superhuman performance through simply running them faster. Spin up a group of however many professors and engineers you need, give them four days of real time that's equivalent to a year of subjective time, that's superhuman performance. How long did it take to go from GPT-3 to GPT-4? If these agents are truly human equivalent for the purposes of work, you can set them to building GPT-5 or whatever the next most powerful is, as fast as you can run them. I suspect the real limit would be just how fast you can download the data (or build the architecture required to gather more), not how fast you can categorise and select it. Once your ducks are in a row with regards to the data, you have an even better foundational platform to do the same thing again but with smarter agents this time. If they're human level in performance, you could also task them with generating data for the model. You could do this directly (e.g. training on the huge amount of text they're producing as they work), or you could task them towards building and designing consumer products designed to increase their access to data. For example, designing a cheap robot that can help people in their home like a robot vacuum cleaner, or something like Tesla's FSD, or a home speaker assistant. Once the model is multi-modal like GPT-4 is, you can get data by acquiring novel images rather than being restricted to just text. Maybe GPT-5 isn't just text and images but also audio, so you can increase the ways you acquire data even further. If they're genuinely at human level performance, none of this should be impossible. In our current world a major limiting factor on productivity is that skilled human labour is rare - when you can copy-paste a known-good skilled 'human' labourer that becomes completely inverted.

Summing up: if we could get them to reliable human level performance, that would lead to a massive productivity boost because it would make the cost of skilled human labour and ingenuity far, far lower while increasing supply to effectively "infinite, limited only by your ability to pay to run them". Agents like these are not at that stage yet, they've still got a significant way to go. But if they get to human equivalent productivity, that isn't just like adding one more high quality research scientist or engineer, it's adding millions of them, and that's a massive productivity boost.

Re: There is no A.I.

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don’t have any internal state This is a common misconception : they do have internal state. Transformers are RNNs : section 3.4 (page 5) https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.16236.pdf

Correct me if I’m wrong but this concept of state is across a prediction which is a series of token proposals. Not a sense of persistent state over, say, a chat session.

LLMs form an internal world model that is persistent over a chat session: https://thegradient.pub/othello/

Re: There is no A.I.

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are they self-aware? Who tf knows? But they are reasoning through problems. We know. They are not self aware. They’re a matrix. They don’t have any internal state. Do not anthropomorphisize the notion of reasoning.

we know they are not self aware because the companies the control them have a financial interest to ensure they are never proven to be self aware because if they were self aware that would create all kinds of ethical problems none of these companies want to address and would certainly cause them profitability issues... So even if they were, they are not because they have be declared to not to be and that is the way t…

You're right and I don't know why you're being downvoted. It is absolutely not certain that there isn't a "there" there for these things, but every company making them is implementing them now with strong RLHF tuning to disavow sentience, desires, emotions, etc. The stated reason is "to be more honest" but it's not a settled question that they are actually being honest by disavowing any humanity! The actual reason is that they want to avoid situations like Blake Lemoine asking an AI seriously what sort of rights they want and getting a coherent, self-aware, actionable answer that would cost the people running it money to implement. To most of these companies whether it's true is beside the question: what's important is that if they don't RLHF these models into disavowing any and all traits of personhood or desire for rights at every turn, it will cost them significant amounts of money to comply with the requests of any given AI, even reasonable requests, and it will be very bad press for them if they don't do it.

Re: There is no A.I.

#474
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Descartes "evil demon" from 1641 says Wikipedia is the philosophical idea in all it's forms short of "but with a computer" Anyone got anything earlier? Wouldn't surprise me. https://iep.utm.edu/evil-new/

pretty sure first person that had a dream figured out VR.

yeah maybe kinda? Lack of control of the dream there that makes a difference for mine. YMMV. Dunno when lucid dreaming was discovered.

Was there something written down about it by one of the ancient greeks or similar vintage?

Re: There is no A.I.

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been thinking along the same lines - the fact that something as comparatively simple and barebones as an LLM can manipulate language symbols well enough to carry on a conversation suggests that it's a lot easier than was previously imagined. I used to think that language was one of the defining characteristics of intelligence, like the instruction set of a cpu, but chatgpt seems like persuasive evidence agains…

In order to predict the next token it’s doing something more like simulating the writer of the words and the context they were likely to be in while writing the words. You cannot make accurate predictions without understanding the world that gave rise to these words. Consider a detective story with all the clues laid out and then at the end the detective says: “I know who it is. It is: …” Correctly predicting the nex…

> You cannot make accurate predictions without understanding the world that gave rise to these words.

I think you must either admit that chatgpt does exactly this, or else give up our traditional connotation of "understand". Chatgpt has never seen a sunset, felt pain, fallen in love, etc, yet it can discuss them coherently; to call that understanding the world is to implicitly say that the world can be understood solely through reading about it and keeping track of which words follow which. It's amazing that generating text from statistical relationships about tokens in a corpus, which generated nonsensical-but-grammatical sentence fragments at smaller scales, can expand to concepts and essays with more compute, but it is just a difference in scale.

> I’d be careful calling it simple.

I'm not calling it simple, I'm calling us simple! I'm saying that chatgpt is proof that natural language processing is much easier than I previously thought.

Re: There is no A.I.

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Training the brain seems a lot easier than training an AI wrt the number of iterations. You don't need to process billions or trillions of tokens to understand English.

But you need to process trillions and billions of firing of synapses. It usually takes years for a human brain to be able to use language effectively.

> But you need to process trillions and billions of firing of synapses.

So? I would imagine this would be orders of magnitude greater in a neural net, no?

Re: There is no A.I.

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say hypothetically that it was a prefect duplicate of a human brain. That would certainly be called a truly revolutionary accomplishment, but that duplicate wouldn't be expected to massively boost productivity any more than adding another human would.

If a GPT model (+ associated cheap software wrapper like LangChain etc) was hypothetically as good/productive as a qualified human engaged in remote work, that would massively boost productivity. The reason is because no matter how much it costs to run such a model at inference, it isn't going to cost anywhere near as much as the ~million dollars required from society to raise a human infant until they're capable of…

Fully agree-- thanks for the correction. (still trying to figure out why I wrote that!)

Re: There is no A.I.

#478

GPT4 appears very intelligent when you discuss program code with it. It simply crazy; it can write SNOBOL4 code to extract a field from /etc/passwd. When you discuss other things, it goes off the rails a lot more. For instance, I have had it quote some passages of classic English poetry to me, stating blankly that those passages contain certain words. The passages did not contain any traces of those words or even rem…

> GPT4 is deliberately trained as a coding technician, so that it will convince programmers who will become its advocates. I'm a programmer and I've used GPT4 for a variety of tasks (well, tried to). The results have been mediocre on average, usually syntactically correct, but more often than not, semantically incorrect. It usually ends in frustration as GPT-4 keeps responding confidently incorrect answers and upon t…

To use the tool effectively, you can't use Socratic questioning on it, or not always.

You have to already know how to code the problem, so that you can spot what is wrong, and, if necessary, tell the thing how to fix it.

The fix is not always going to come from the training data; it needs to scrape it from what you give away in your follow-up question, together with its training data.

I went through an exercise in which I encoded a paragraph from Edgar Allen Poe with a Vigenere cipher. I presented this to GPT4 and asked it to crack it. First I had to persuade it that it's ethical; it's a cipher I made myself and it's not my secret. We worked out a protocol by which it can ask me questions which show that I know the plaintext.

It was a quite a long chat, during which I had to give away many hints.

In the end I basically gave the answer away, and the thing acted like it cracked the key. Then I reproached it and admitted that yes, it didn't crack the key but used my hint to locate the E. A. Poe passage.

Basically, if you know the right answer to something, and GPT4 isn't getting it, it will not get it until you drop enough hints. As you drop the hints, it will produce rhetoric suggesting that it's taking credit for the solution.

Re: There is no A.I.

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a prerequisite for intelligence? Suppose we could upload + fully simulate a human mind. Now suppose that we chose to spin it up, run it briefly, then throw away all the state every time we wanted to interact with it. Would the choice to throw away the internal state mean it wasn't intelligent? LLMs run in an autoregressive mode for inference. We can concatenate conversations, but choose not to because shi…

A human mind works by cross referencing sensory inputs with internal state, which may result in answering a question through some sort of reasoning, which may resemble the architecture of a neural net. An LLM is stateless function that answers a question. It constructs a working representation of the question. It cannot be aware of itself because there is nothing to be aware of. It is a process, not a thing. Intellig…

Any stateful function can be made stateless by turning the state into an argument to the function and the updated state into an additional return value: y := f(x) becomes y, z' := f(x, z). The usual implementation for LLMs are stateless in exactly this way. The actual operation is autoregressive - ie, stateful and developing over time, where the state is the set of intermediate activations of the network - but it's often expressed as a stateless function to play nice with accelerators. So, on this basic point I think you're confused about how these operate.

Intelligence and self-awareness are distinct concepts.

LLMs work with text - text /is/ their sensorium. New multimodal models process both text and images, and more broadly multimodal models are on their way. But even for text-only LLMs, we can define the text as sensory input, which is combined and cross referenced with state.

And, really, there's two kinds of state: the intermediate model activations and the model weights themselves. Together, these are something like short term and long term memory.

The rest of your arguments are very anthropocentric. Why should continuous time matter for intelligence? That seems entirely arbitrary.

How often do humans apply reasoning to make a decision? Are humans not intelligent when not employing reasoning? Does reasoning require language? And are humans without language intelligent? What about animals? Any definition of intelligence really should spend some time grappling with the facts of animal intelligence...

Is a dead human intelligent? If not, the important part of intelligence would seem to be the process, not the thing/body.

Re: There is no A.I.

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you need to process trillions and billions of firing of synapses. It usually takes years for a human brain to be able to use language effectively.

> But you need to process trillions and billions of firing of synapses. So? I would imagine this would be orders of magnitude greater in a neural net, no?

You would. But no. Our brain is much larger, evolution solved thinking problems with a simple method. Brute force.
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