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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

very interesting. So perhaps Florentine was an example of a 'neutral' (or at least acceptable compromise) language to be used as the national language.

Kinda yes, in addition it was the language in which 3 of the most important Italian poets (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio) wrote. To be honest, even if Florentine became the official Italian language soon after Italy was unified in 1861, it wasn't until 1960s that Italians started to speak it everyday thanks to radio and TV. In addition, I would argue that the use of dialects is still a thing here (and these dialects…

Even Tuscan dialects can be quite divergent from Standard Italian, as the latter branched off like 500 years ago.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#472
Mussolini actually did the same thing. This led the fascist to come up with a bunch of new words to replace the ones that they had forbidden, often to absurd degrees.

Edit #1 with examples:

mescita = cafè/bar

acquavite = brandy/whisky.

tramezzino = sandwich

bevanda arlecchina = cocktail

torpedone = bus

Pellicola = film

And a bunch football terms

I personally like instead of “gangster” you say “malfattore”, which just sounds very funny.

Anyways here’s a link for those who are interested: https://www.archeome.it/approfondimento-le-parole-proibite-d...

Edit #2 they also changed famous peoples names

For example Louis Armstrong = “Luigi Braccioforte”

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is at least as prevalent - and far more out-in-the-open - in Europe than in the US. There should be BLM or equivalent protests all over Europe, frankly. It's shocking how openly racist Europeans are (whether eg Italians about Africans, Germans about anyone, or Europeans routinely about gypsies). Ever gone on Reddit and looked at what Swedes say about refugees and immigrants (post ~2014 or so; in 2015 they were…

> Racism is at least as prevalent - and far more out-in-the-open - in Europe than in the US. There should be BLM or equivalent protests all over Europe, frankly. It's shocking how openly racist Europeans are (whether eg Italians about Africans, Germans about anyone, or Europeans routinely about gypsies). You're, unsurprisingly, getting downvoted for this comment, but you are entirely correct. Racism is actually far m…

I grew up with blackface (zwarte piet), sung about him/her, even was one on occasion. Never thought anything about it. Until out of nowhere I get called a racist and people show up screaming "Racist!" at a, what was always, just a fun time for kids.

Sure, I, and many people in my country, had a reaction against it, very conservative in nature. But now, over a few years and seeing some reasonable people explain to me that zwarte piet hurts them and that the hair, the lips, the earrings, the slave-like behavior in songs is really quite racist. I, and many others changed their mind. It also helped when I talked to people that held the opinion that I am/was not a despicable person for taking part in this old tradition, there was no "original sin" that I should feel for the rest of my life.

And so a lot of people in my country changed their mind. Sinterklaas is a kids party/holiday and it should be inclusive. Kids couldn't care less about the color of zwarte piet of course. I and everybody I now know is glad we changed course, or rather are still changing course. Mostly smaller villages defiantly keep the old black face, but it will rot away, as it should, over time. It takes time to convince those people, or perhaps they are too stuck in their ways. My grandma lived through WW2 and still always said horribly racist things (i.e. a common saying was that if a river was dirty, "the Turkish people swim in there."). You really couldn't change her anymore. She also lived in constant fear that Islamic people will come to our country and, "since they all live together in small houses, they will come and live with us in our houses if we don't protect our country".

I also cringe at children's books like Pinkeltje (first part published 1939) that I have lying around from my own youth and read to my children until I hit parts that I really couldn't read anymore. Parts are pure racism, i.e. in Africa Pinkeltje is basically battling small black devils, really portayed as sub-human. It takes time for people to see it, to see it as people of other races experience these texts.

I'm 100% on your side now, and I reason with people that aren't and I try not to judge. Easy for me to do of course, when you are at the receiving end I can imagine screaming "Racist!" at a kids party feels, and perhaps is, the only way towards change.

Btw, I also cringe at our still very popular "Jip and Janneke", Jip is the boy, always dirty and mischievous. Janneke the girl: Always clean and vacuuming with her mother and doing the laundry. They also get candy for anything they do well. I tell my daughter she can be a knight, does not have to be the princess. But these things run deep in our culture, and we should get rid of them.

I know it does not really make sense, but I apologize to you and to people that felt hurt. I didn't see it. Thank you for your sustained effort to make me see it as it is and how you experienced it. The world our kids grow up in will be better because of it.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calcolatore (my university teacher told me that. Nobody in Italy would use that), mouse, touchpad, schermo touch, scanner, web depends on how you use it: internet or "rete", collegamento, applicazione, base di dati (university course was named like that. Most people call it database professionally), no idea about word processor (I rarely use that in English too), bit, byte, floppy, hard disk is "disco rigido", scherm…

Power unit is alimentatore. All words in my second list are translated in Italian with the words you provided. Yes, database is base di dati but it's seldom used as such. Calcolatore is the calculator app nowadays :-)

I'm used to call it power supplier, hence wasn't sure about the translation (my English is at fault here).

And indeed if you say "calcolatore", I interpret that as the calculator app (or any small math-only calculators used in school)

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but this stuff get pushed as a higher priority over communication, that's my problem with every argument about "preserving culture". If everybody in Italy understands "computer", calling it "calcolatore" is outright against communication (that word in italian is closer to "device to do math operations", which is technically correct, but not what people imagine)

Ironically that's exactly what "computer" means. The root "comput-" comes from latin "computo" while "calcolatore" comes from the latin "calculo" which is a rough latin synonym of "computo". The form "comput-" transformed in Italian into "cont-" like in "conto" (English count), "contante" (cash) etc. So perhaps "contatore" (counter) instead of "computer" would make more etymological sense.

We had this debate in France in 1955. We use the word "ordinateur" for "computer", which comes from the latin "ordinator" which means something that order things, it shares the same root as the word "order".

It was picked over the word "calculateur" which is the French equivalent of "calculatore" after IBM France shared a letter wondering if "calculateur" was too restrictive and didn't properly express the machine capabilities. To which Jacques Perret answered "why not ordinateur?"

https://journals.openedition.org/bibnum/534

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been happening in Russia for decades, too. The status symbols among the upper leadership of the Soviet Union during the Cold War were all products of Western capitalism. For example, luxury cars. That continues today, and Putin, due to being a Russian nationalist, is actively fighting against it (even though he himself wears luxury Western clothing). You could even argue it was one of his motivations for invadin…

The ruling party in Italy currently are literally fascists.

True. So are the ruling parties of Hungary and Russia.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but this stuff get pushed as a higher priority over communication, that's my problem with every argument about "preserving culture". If everybody in Italy understands "computer", calling it "calcolatore" is outright against communication (that word in italian is closer to "device to do math operations", which is technically correct, but not what people imagine)

Ironically that's exactly what "computer" means. The root "comput-" comes from latin "computo" while "calcolatore" comes from the latin "calculo" which is a rough latin synonym of "computo". The form "comput-" transformed in Italian into "cont-" like in "conto" (English count), "contante" (cash) etc. So perhaps "contatore" (counter) instead of "computer" would make more etymological sense.

I'm well aware and I find it somewhat amusing.

The problem is the interpretation people give to the word. If I say computer, people think of something with keyboard + mouse and a screen, or maybe a laptop (funny enough, they will not think of their phone).

If I say "calcolatore", we envision one of those devices to do math operations, used in school (are those still a thing?)

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#478
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically that's exactly what "computer" means. The root "comput-" comes from latin "computo" while "calcolatore" comes from the latin "calculo" which is a rough latin synonym of "computo". The form "comput-" transformed in Italian into "cont-" like in "conto" (English count), "contante" (cash) etc. So perhaps "contatore" (counter) instead of "computer" would make more etymological sense.

We had this debate in France in 1955. We use the word "ordinateur" for "computer", which comes from the latin "ordinator" which means something that order things, it shares the same root as the word "order". It was picked over the word "calculateur" which is the French equivalent of "calculatore" after IBM France shared a letter wondering if "calculateur" was too restrictive and didn't properly express the machine ca…

It's kinda funny picturing either of those words as we play Dark Souls (videogame) on these devices. Yes of course that's "all math", still!

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#480
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Italian, living in Canada, the reason why I'm attached to my primary language is because I know the most vocabulary and language usage. Aside from that, it's an unfortunate language, since you can't use to communicate anywhere else beside Italy. We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication, when invoking cultural issues. If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing somet…

> We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication, when invoking cultural issues. If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing something really wrong. The people pushing for this do, in fact remember that the primary purpose of language is communication. Imagine being an aging Italian, or Quebecer, who has spoken Italian, or French all your life, do not have a good grasp of Eng…

The reason in the first place why there are English words in the day-to-day Italian is because a majority of the population _uses already these words_.

Given that, this goes against the "preserve communication" argument. After all, this is how Italian was born (at least that's what we studied in school), there was Greek, there was Latin, somewhere the language got distorted by common people all the way until it became Italian and got shared by many, many people.

The language was not defined, it evolved with how people used it.

This process has been going on forever, I don't see why it should change now with artificial constraints.

For what is worth, official documents should be allowed in English language for the entire country, given we are part of the EU, there is a whole money-sucking machine (and time-sucking!) to translate things in English when interacting with other EU countries.

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