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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#471

Post by ryzvonusef »

hgomersall wrote: post #408
tekla wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a poor Asian immigrant family, and this SAT shit seems wild. My parents always told me that America is an easy country to succeed in. Just do decently in school, ace the SAT, and boom full ride to a upper middle class life, no matter the background. Its proven pretty true so far.

This is what puzzles me. What is the intent of the SAT, is it to assess aptitude for something? Is that something the desire to achieve good grades? Is it intelligence? Is it the aptitude to fire guns in a tank? For sure if you have a test that tests something, then you assign outcomes based on that assessment, then anyone has the opportunity to understand what is being assessed and practice until they are good, but…

the point of standardized tests, is from what I understand, getting some sort of "objective" ranking, not for the purpose of intelligence per se, but to have a number so that when there is a cutoff, no one complains because everyone had (ceteris paribas) had an equal chance of getting in that cut-off, if they had worked hard enough.

In countries like India, the test like JEE are really absurd, because the competition is just that tough. Just any sort of question that fits in the syllabus is thrown in, because what else can you do?

In countries like the US, where things are a bit less stressed, they can try to attempt to perhaps gain some secondary data, by testing reasoning or what not.

but in the end, it's just a way to rank "fairly" to create cut-off, to look too deeply into it is not worth it, that's the job for your regular school education.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#472

Post by 2snakes »

tenpies wrote: post #446
bnralt wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a simple and effective way of achieving the goals they claim to be championing. And what are the real goals of these institutions? The whole approach of having artificially limited education where people are sifted into higher and lower status classes based upon judgements made when they're teenagers is premised on elitism, not equity. That's the purpose of these institutions - not to education as many peop…

> There's a reason why Harvard is happy to take people's money and give them an education in the Harvard Extension School, but why they firmly tell those people they can't call themselves Harvard graduates. Just wanted to add since I've looked into Harvard Extension School (HES): a HES graduate from a degree program is enrolled in the Harvard Alumni Association and does get to refer to themselves as a "Harvard gradua…

I have been watching this discussion but wasn’t aware there were recent votes about it. There is a diff between HES and Harvard College, as there should be since they are diff schools at Harvard University. Interestingly enough, something like 1/3 iirc of the classes are exactly the same invluding professor between the two. Pretty sure HES people would be satisfied if they were allowed to just put Harvard University by itself on their diploma or resume.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#473

Post by moomoo11 »

counters wrote: post #416
moomoo11 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In re to LSAT at least a decade ago your LSAT score meant shit. I’m S Asian, scored 99th percentile 17x, but my GPA was around 3.3 because I think college is a joke when it involves homework. I had never gotten less than a A on midterms and finals, but what I’m trying to say is that GPA and race matters much more. There was a law school acceptance calculator. With my scores and my Asian background, the T14 were eithe…

> Yes I don’t give a shit about homework, I understand the material which is why I’m slaying each test. I hated that about college. We are adults. I’m paying to get an education, why the fuck is homework 20% of the grade? It’s practice, for people who don’t get the material. What discipline did you study in undergrad? In many majors - or even just in well-taught classes - work outside of lecture or recitation is desi…

To me education is about what you learn. And I’m happy that I aced every single exam and project.

Like I mentioned to the other poster, there are people who do all the homework and still fail the class.

I aced every single project, midterm, and final. I can understand most topics the first or second time I learn them, and when I don’t I will do some homework. But for the most part I personally didn’t need it and I got penalized. I also worked during college so I could afford to not commute, so i was glad I didn’t need to do the homework to do well in everything else.

So explain that to me. I recall students who did homework would still fail and then the professor would do some last saving grace move where you do some BS work to get an extra five percent.

Someone who understands the material would ace the exams. In my experience most people did not ace the exams and in fact would hate on me and some others who would “kill the curve”.

Finally fwiw I went to a lower ranked state college not some MIT tier place. They were the only college who offered the most financial aid so I was able to graduate with under 7k owed while affording to live on campus.

Paid off my debt in the first months paycheck lol.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#474

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Ekaros wrote: post #388
Jensson wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see why studying 20 hours for 1 test that you can easily repeat is easier to scrape together than 2000 hours to score well on all tests throughout high school?

Maybe a test is bad if you can study all of the material or enough of it in 20 hours. Realistically good test would require that multi-hundred hour build up.

The SAT and ACT are pretty easy in this regard. You can do really good at it just by practicing for a few months. Nothing like the Chinese Gaokao, which you need to study for a couple of years at least.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#475

Post by hgomersall »

ryzvonusef wrote: post #471
hgomersall wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what puzzles me. What is the intent of the SAT, is it to assess aptitude for something? Is that something the desire to achieve good grades? Is it intelligence? Is it the aptitude to fire guns in a tank? For sure if you have a test that tests something, then you assign outcomes based on that assessment, then anyone has the opportunity to understand what is being assessed and practice until they are good, but…

the point of standardized tests, is from what I understand, getting some sort of "objective" ranking, not for the purpose of intelligence per se, but to have a number so that when there is a cutoff, no one complains because everyone had ( ceteris paribas ) had an equal chance of getting in that cut-off, if they had worked hard enough. In countries like India, the test like JEE are really absurd, because the competiti…

> but in the end, it's just a way to rank "fairly" to create cut-off, to look too deeply into it is not worth it, that's the job for your regular school education.

Except, presumably, when there are debates about how the tests benefit or not one particular cohort?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#476

Post by torstenvl »

docandrew wrote: post #457
torstenvl wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Why? Some of the public funds come by way of Pell Grants. What's so terrible about poor kids getting a top-tier education? Other mechanisms are research grants. You don't think it's in the public's interest to incentivize graduate students at top institutions to do socially beneficial research? Help me understand what your objection is to federal policy, and what you wish federal policy were instead.

Harvard has an endowment worth more than $50B. Harvard grads are the ruling class of our nation, and their system of legacy admissions mean it’s essentially a hereditary system of nobility. This endowment isn’t taxed, and generates huge returns. Its one thing to defend poor kids getting a leg up with federal grants, but I’m not sure the ones who pay for it are the same ones who benefit, and the system seems to be eno…

I noticed you didn't come close to answering the question. Complaining that people who aren't you are making money isn't a good look, and certainly isn't a sound basis for federal public policy.

You indicated a problem with the way federal funds are spent. What section of what federal statute should be changed? In what way should it be changed?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#477

Post by madars »

bnralt wrote: post #39
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. Everthing else is either circumstantial or based in the opinion of others, mostly highschool teachers. If i had to rely on my highschool teachers' opinion of me i would not have ever gone to university let alone have won scholarships. Standardized testing allo…

I've seen this recently with the elementary school near me. Grading is extremely opaque, and seems to be largely based on teacher intuition. Some very advanced students have gotten grades below where they are (I've heard many teachers just won't give the highest grade until the end of the year because of the weird system). Thankfully they also have standardized test scores, which both have a much more transparent sco…

>Grading is extremely opaque, and seems to be largely based on teacher intuition.

Grading in certain subjects is just laughable. Can you objectively evaluate English essays so that 97/100 is "better" than 96/100? Why not add more significant digits: 96983/100000!

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#478

Post by hyperhopper »

somethoughts wrote: post #372
bnralt wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a simple and effective way of achieving the goals they claim to be championing. And what are the real goals of these institutions? The whole approach of having artificially limited education where people are sifted into higher and lower status classes based upon judgements made when they're teenagers is premised on elitism, not equity. That's the purpose of these institutions - not to education as many peop…

To your point, the biggest issue that I see is that elite schools are not growing physically to accept more students. When the eliteness is built on exclusivity versus the quality of the education/graduates that pits admissions of legacy versus new admits. Its kind of like when Nokia used to sell the mobile phones with gold plating and the only way to get one was via an invite from an influencer. Basically creating t…

The thing is, education doesn't scale infinitely like that. The bigger the class size the less attention you get from the professor, the less individualized the education is, the more generic it has to be, the lower the common denominator, etc.

And lots of colleges are known for their teachers. You can't always just hire another identical teacher: good ones are rare. At elite schools, they are often even famous and individually important in their field. You cannot scale that.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#479

Post by yibg »

csa wrote: post #344
DebtDeflation wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm white, my wife is Asian, our kids will be applying to university over the next couple of years. We've started to have the conversation about which race they will check off on the application. I'm coming to the conclusion that they have to just check white, as this means they will face less discrimination than if they check Asian. This makes me very uncomfortable, and also just seems absurd.

Let me put your concerns to rest… There are no elite schools that systematically discriminate against Asians. Zero. None. Let me add a few points that counter some folks who think that schools do discriminate against Asians: - Some schools do give preferential treatment to Black and Latino/an applicants. This is not a particularly good look for the schools, imho, but it’s the reality. This is not the same as discrimi…

So schools have subjective criteria that disproportionately impacts one group of students, but it’s fine because that’s the rules and they are following it?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#480

Post by bushbaba »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #289
tokey wrote: post #71

Isn't this patently obvious that dropping the SAT is entirely about creating pretext for continued discrimination against Asian applicants? In 1996, California repealed affirmative action via Prop 209. At the UC Berkeley and UCLA, considered the 'best' of the UC system, Asians represented 25-30% of the student base. Studies and fear-mongering at the time showed that a repeal of affirmative action would imply that Asi…

I'm white, my wife is Asian, our kids will be applying to university over the next couple of years. We've started to have the conversation about which race they will check off on the application. I'm coming to the conclusion that they have to just check white, as this means they will face less discrimination than if they check Asian. This makes me very uncomfortable, and also just seems absurd.

I believe you can check any race and they will never question it. You could state you identify as Black and so long as the name and application looks 'black', they'll never know. You'll start your first day at university and what will they do, ask you to take a genetic test?
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