Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022 • Hacker News Board

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#471

Post by taoufix » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #416

fleddr wrote: post #376

I wonder what causes this high electricity use. Not because it's any of my business, it's just genuine curiosity. He never reveals actual use, only savings. Still, at 0.25$ per kwh charged and an average monthly saving of 210$, we can work out that 860 kwh/month was saved, which amounts to 10,320 kwh per year. Actual use may be (far) higher, but we don't know. Just these savings alone is triple my total electricity c…

We're a family of four in the Midwest (US), and we average about 40 kwh/day. Roughly 14,000kwh annually. The only gas stuff we have is our hot water heater and furnace. Our A/C gets a work out in the summer when it is pretty warm (at least this year). I do about 8 loads of laundry a week, and I'm sure that my dryer is a big user of electricity. We have a lot of computers in the house between the four of us; three des…

Biggest culprits in energy consumptions are heating appliances. To save some bucks I usually set my thermostat 1 or 2 degrees under my ideal temperature and wear warmer clothes and I never used a dryer, I don't mind having clothes hanging on a rack on a corner of my flat.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#472

Post by gh02t » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

walnutclosefarm wrote: post #256

praxulus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net metering just doesn't make sense though. Everyone who wants to rely on the grid for power availability ought to pay for grid upkeep costs. Net metering would make sense if it came on top of a baseline "connectivity fee" that covered grid maintenance, but that's not the current policy, would likely be politically infeasible, and would hurt rooftop solar customers financially anyway. Subsidizing solar is a perfectl…

That's how my distributed generation contract with our Rural Electric Cooperative works. We pay $50/month for the connection, but the actual use/generation is 1 for 1 net metering. We are limited in how much generation we can connect to 105% of our average annual consumption, so over the course of year, on average, we zero out energy costs. If we want to connect more distributed generation than that, the tariff shift…

Is the $50/month prorated into the cost if you end up net consuming for the grid? Or are any costs on top of that?

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#473

Post by antisthenes » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:32 PM UTC

david422 wrote: post #339

manimino wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning panels also needs to happen periodically. That cost can be in the thousands, especially if your roof is hard to access (e.g. high off the ground). There are so many ways a rooftop solar installation investment can turn against you. If regulations change, your net metering goes away. If electricity prices drop, your ROI goes negative. Rooftop solar is a fun enthusiast project, but it's a lousy use of solar pa…

I have rooftop solar - and eventually I will need a new roof - which will require taking the solar panels off and then mounting them back on again - labor costs. Additionally the inverter will fail at a certain point and that is not cheap. Given some ballpark estimates, I do feel like it could simply be a wash financially.

It's usually recommended to install solar panels on a relatively new roof (< 5 years), so that both the roof and solar panel lifecycles align. Since the panels act as protection of sorts, it also extends the life of the roof, and you can easily have both installations serve you for ~30 years.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#474

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

dpierce9 wrote: post #350

praxulus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net metering just doesn't make sense though. Everyone who wants to rely on the grid for power availability ought to pay for grid upkeep costs. Net metering would make sense if it came on top of a baseline "connectivity fee" that covered grid maintenance, but that's not the current policy, would likely be politically infeasible, and would hurt rooftop solar customers financially anyway. Subsidizing solar is a perfectl…

Net metering means utilities sell the power your system produces at full price to your neighbor. They pocket the avoided cost of producing and delivering that power (and during price spikes the cost of fuel can be higher than the value of producing power). Net metering does create stranded assets if everyone does it. But not everyone does. Further, the idea that the utility gains NO benefit from net metering is wrong…

Utilities pay much lower wholesale costs than than they sell the power for. Why should they be forced to buy your power at an inflated rate when the generator will sell to them for 90% less?

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#475

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:18 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #179

praxulus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net metering just doesn't make sense though. Everyone who wants to rely on the grid for power availability ought to pay for grid upkeep costs. Net metering would make sense if it came on top of a baseline "connectivity fee" that covered grid maintenance, but that's not the current policy, would likely be politically infeasible, and would hurt rooftop solar customers financially anyway. Subsidizing solar is a perfectl…

In maine, CMP charges $11 a month for a "connection" to the grid and your first monthly 50kwh. Is that not the case in california or other net metering markets?

$11 a month is nowhere close to the grid upkeep cost.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#476

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:19 PM UTC

K0balt wrote: post #374

praxulus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net metering just doesn't make sense though. Everyone who wants to rely on the grid for power availability ought to pay for grid upkeep costs. Net metering would make sense if it came on top of a baseline "connectivity fee" that covered grid maintenance, but that's not the current policy, would likely be politically infeasible, and would hurt rooftop solar customers financially anyway. Subsidizing solar is a perfectl…

Isn’t there a base charge though? In my home town it’s around 25 dollars a month just to be hooked up whether you use anything or not. What would seem logical to me would be a base charge, they net meter you to zero, but then you sell power at the wholesaler rate. If that wipes out your connect charge you still have them the value that they would have paid for the power you made. Maybe the base charge would have to b…

The thing is that grid upkeep costs increase when people are selling power back. Who should have to pay for those increased fixed costs? Net metering means everyone pays.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#477

Post by whycombagator » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:22 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #89

whycombagator wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never usually see it factored in as a cost but if a roof is replaced or a leak forms under the panels (or a panel) then the cost of removing/re-installing the panel(s) surely isn’t free. So that cost should also be included

There is typically a ten year warranty on the installation that covers leaks. An installer checks for roof age as part of qualification so you don't put panels on a roof that will age out before the panel warranty (typically 20 years, sometimes 25.) Roof leaks that are accidental are covered by insurance, and the work to remove or replace the panels is part of that. Typically you adjust your home insurance coverage b…

I don’t use any numbers. Just wanted to point out there is slightly more to it than the upfront cost. As with anything there is an associated maintenance cost that is variable depending on circumstance.

To be clear I think solar panels can be a great idea, but it’s misleading to present only a single upfront cost when determining the years to break even

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#478

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:22 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #453

secabeen wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduction of 1kWh delivered does not save them the same amount of money because the cost of connection is dominated by the 1st kW delivered. Scaling delivered power does have some cost, but the majority of delivery is in being able to deliver power to a particular area in the first place and to the maintenance of the lines providing any power.

Yes and no. If I draw an extra 10 kWh one random hour and export 10 kWh back at some other random hour, this costs the utility essentially nothing. The transformer is already there, and other customers near me will consume it possibly without even involving the transformer. (I say “essentially” because there is some tiny loss in the system, but that’s maybe 2%, not 70%.)

Absolutely false. Wholesale electricity costs vary wildly with time of day. You’re saying the grid should be forced to act as an unlimited battery for free and that just doesn’t make sense.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#479

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:24 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #332

eppp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. It doesn't make any sense. It isn't a profit margin issue. There is a massive infrastructure and expense to deliver wholesale power to an individual customer and it has to be recouped. Either you sell back your power at some percent of wholesale or solar installs need to get a corresponding increased delivery fee.

> Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. No, it doesn't. I have solar+battery with net metering. I buy from the electric company at ~11.5c/kWh and sell our excess to them at ~2.7c/kWh for a difference of ~4.3x As the sole entity that you can sell to - short of regulators being involved - they set the rate. And yes, there's already a monthly connection fee.

You don’t have net metering

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#480

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

shostack wrote: post #129

hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

Would a good tl;Dr summary of things in CA be that if you didn't need solar before and got grandfathered, it doesn't make sense to get solar now? How does that work with new homes being required to have solar installed? Is it just a net giant win for pg&e?

You need a battery to efficiently use your solar. Why should pg&e be forced to buy at an inflated retail rate when they can get wholesale electricity for 70% less?