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macOS Ventura is now available

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Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#471

Post by frosted-flakes »

piva00 wrote: post #427
kergonath wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave up a while ago trying to remember in which preference pane each setting was. There are just too many buttons that are moved every other version. I cannot live without Spotlight in system preferences.

I gave up when a bunch of easily-accessible settings for mouses/mousepads/keyboards went to the "Accessibility" pane. It was annoying to see the Accessibility pane become a catch-all pane for power-user features...

iOS does this too. Why is disabling "Tap to wake" in the Accessibility settings? That should be with the Display or Lock Screen settings.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#472

Post by samuelstros »

tinus_hn wrote: post #470
samuelstros wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see where you are coming from. Windows has great window management = less chaos, less orphan open windows Mac OS has inferior window management = chaos, hundreds of open windows The main reasons stems from the fact that Windows open window discoverability is higher. Open windows are always displayed in the menu bar. MacOS only displays the app icon but provides no information about the open windows except for press…

Mac OS displays exactly the same information, Windows groups windows under one icon as well. Windows shows miniatures of the windows on hover, Mac OS pops them all up to the foreground if you click the icon and lists them on right click/control click. This theory makes little sense.

This theory is a subtle UX difference with larger outcomes. MacOS requires additional steps to see open windows while Windows does not.

The right click Mac OS solution is the best example. By default, right click on MacOS is deactivated. Even if someone right clicks on an app icon, that person has to click AND process the titles windows instead of seeing a visual preview as on Windows of the window.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#473

Post by ar_lan »

kennend3 wrote: post #451
Scharkenberg wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My previous experience with Windows (~3 years ago) was that every single update took ~2 hours to complete, and they were asking to update weekly. Unless you manually seek preview updates, Windows gets updates once per month, on Patch Tuesday (a twenty-year tradition now). Two hours for "every single update" sounds implausible for Windows 10 because Microsoft has implemented changes to minimize the "offline phase" o…

This is very well written. This whole "tribalism" nonsense over companies is just insane. If you like windows, great. If you like MacOS, great. I don't get why people feel a personal attachment to things like which OS they use. What really confuses me is when they become unpaid advocates for their company of choice? Personally, I've never been a big fan of Microsoft and used Ubuntu/Mint for many years. Recently i mov…

This is not tribalism. I’m detailing a history of why I stopped using Windows, because the updates were frustratingly annoying.

If it wasn’t every week, it certainly felt like it - perhaps it was every other week. But it’s not dishonest to claim that Windows updates took up far more time than macOS updates. If I update my Mac twice a year, but Windows has to update bi-weekly (or monthly, as the person responded to me claimed is the only possible way), that is still several hours more time dedicated to Windows updates overall.

Additionally I can go far longer without updating my Mac - I’m not sure if there was a setting for this on Windows, but their updates seemed more-or-less forced.

—-

It’s interesting you believe someone to have had a negative experience with Windows to be a dishonest experience.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#474

Post by ngrilly »

tinus_hn wrote: post #470
samuelstros wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see where you are coming from. Windows has great window management = less chaos, less orphan open windows Mac OS has inferior window management = chaos, hundreds of open windows The main reasons stems from the fact that Windows open window discoverability is higher. Open windows are always displayed in the menu bar. MacOS only displays the app icon but provides no information about the open windows except for press…

Mac OS displays exactly the same information, Windows groups windows under one icon as well. Windows shows miniatures of the windows on hover, Mac OS pops them all up to the foreground if you click the icon and lists them on right click/control click. This theory makes little sense.

In my experience, the miniatures showed by Windows on hover are very convenient. I miss them a bit on Mac. And also the ability to quickly snap windows on sides or corners.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#475

Post by ngrilly »

GeekyBear wrote: post #159
kawsper wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget CMD+` that switches to another window of the same application.

Honestly, where Mac Window management has always shined is through the use of gestures on a touchpad.

Agreed. And also on iOS. Apple really got gestures right.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#476

Post by ngrilly »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #166
ngrilly wrote: post #63

To switch to another window, we already had Command-Tab, Mission Control, Expose (now part of Mission Control if I understand correctly), and also clicking on the icons in the Dock. And now we have Stage Manager. I had to use Windows 10 as my main workstation for a few weeks at work, and I'm starting to think windows management is – perhaps – one of the rare things Windows does better than macOS. But of course I shou…

That's definitely subjective. For my usage/preferences, the Windows taskbar and alt-tab switcher scale extremely poorly. They drive me to keep no more than 3-4 windows open, because any additional windows beyond that make my desktop progressively more difficult to manage which feels utterly absurd on a tower with a 5950X and 32GB of RAM which I should feel empowered to heavily multitask with.

Good point. Never thought about it. Probably did not use Windows long enough. What is not scaling well with that model? The miniatures are taking too much vertical space when hovering an app icon in the task bar?

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#477

Post by kennend3 »

ar_lan wrote: post #473
kennend3 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very well written. This whole "tribalism" nonsense over companies is just insane. If you like windows, great. If you like MacOS, great. I don't get why people feel a personal attachment to things like which OS they use. What really confuses me is when they become unpaid advocates for their company of choice? Personally, I've never been a big fan of Microsoft and used Ubuntu/Mint for many years. Recently i mov…

This is not tribalism. I’m detailing a history of why I stopped using Windows, because the updates were frustratingly annoying. If it wasn’t every week, it certainly felt like it - perhaps it was every other week. But it’s not dishonest to claim that Windows updates took up far more time than macOS updates. If I update my Mac twice a year, but Windows has to update bi-weekly (or monthly , as the person responded to m…

> This is not tribalism.

Sure it is.. this whole "i'm an apple user and you are a windows user" is tribalism.

Try spending some time on any discussion boards and read the blatant misinformation floating around.

> It’s interesting you believe someone to have had a negative experience with Windows to be a dishonest experience.

I stopped using windows personally around the Windows NT days, mostly because the negative experiences so i absolutely can believe the negative experiences.

Anyhow..

MacOS isn't updated as infrequently as you state:

# ProductID Version Build Post Date Title

1 061-26578 10.14.5 18F2059 2019-10-14 macOS Mojave

2 061-26589 10.14.6 18G103 2019-10-14 macOS Mojave

3 041-91758 10.13.6 17G66 2019-10-19 macOS High Sierra

4 041-88800 10.14.4 18E2034 2019-10-23 macOS Mojave

5 041-90855 10.13.5 17F66a 2019-10-23 Install macOS High Sierra Beta

6 061-86291 10.15.3 19D2064 2020-03-23 macOS Catalina

7 001-04366 10.15.4 19E2269 2020-05-04 macOS Catalina

8 001-15219 10.15.5 19F2200 2020-06-15 macOS Catalina

9 001-36735 10.15.6 19G2006 2020-08-06 macOS Catalina

10 001-36801 10.15.6 19G2021 2020-08-12 macOS Catalina

11 001-51042 10.15.7 19H2 2020-09-24 macOS Catalina

12 001-57224 10.15.7 19H4 2020-10-27 macOS Catalina

13 001-68446 10.15.7 19H15 2020-11-11 macOS Catalina

14 071-78704 11.5.2 20G95 2021-08-18 macOS Big Sur

15 002-23589 11.6.1 20G224 2021-12-01 macOS Big Sur

16 002-42341 11.6.2 20G314 2022-01-14 macOS Big Sur

17 002-57023 11.6.3 20G415 2022-01-26 macOS Big Sur

18 002-65695 11.6.4 20G417 2022-02-17 macOS Big Sur

19 002-77154 11.6.5 20G527 2022-04-11 macOS Big Sur

20 012-08272 11.6.6 20G624 2022-05-24 macOS Big Sur

21 012-42714 12.5 21G72 2022-07-28 macOS Monterey

22 012-40387 11.6.8 20G730 2022-07-28 macOS Big Sur

23 012-51693 12.5.1 21G83 2022-08-24 macOS Monterey

24 012-40494 12.6 21G115 2022-09-20 macOS Monterey

25 012-38280 11.7 20G817 2022-09-20 macOS Big Sur

26 012-92138 13.0 22A380 2022-10-24 macOS Ventura

27 012-90254 12.6.1 21G217 2022-10-24 macOS Monterey

28 012-90253 11.7.1 20G918 2022-10-24 macOS Big Sur

And as someone who hasn't used windows in literally MONTHS.. you can postpone their updates...

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#478

Post by mort96 »

rpastuszak wrote: post #406
mort96 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helps if your problem is only the visuals, but sadly reduce motion keeps all the delays the same. There's a 1.5 second delay when switching spaces with the touchpad gesture (on 120Hz screens; the animation takes longer the higher FPS it's running at), and that animation turns into a 1.5 second fade animation with reduce motion. The new space doesn't gain focus any faster.

Ouch, I remember that you could change the animation duration / animation scale using a terminal command. I don't remember the details, but it was similar to the approach from this (very dated! please search yourself) article: https://osxdaily.com/2012/02/14/speed-up-misson-control-anim...

Yeah, it used to be possible, but hasn't been for a long time. There are some old stackoverflow posts with `defaults write` commands in them, but they don't work anymore.

I used to be a fairly heavy spaces user with 60Hz macbooks; the delay was too high, but just low enough to not drive me completely insane. But after I got one of the new 120Hz ones, I've almost entirely stopped using spaces, since I just can't stand the extremely long wait where my keyboard inputs still go to the application I'm coming from.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#479

Post by tinus_hn »

samuelstros wrote: post #472
tinus_hn wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac OS displays exactly the same information, Windows groups windows under one icon as well. Windows shows miniatures of the windows on hover, Mac OS pops them all up to the foreground if you click the icon and lists them on right click/control click. This theory makes little sense.

This theory is a subtle UX difference with larger outcomes. MacOS requires additional steps to see open windows while Windows does not. The right click Mac OS solution is the best example. By default, right click on MacOS is deactivated. Even if someone right clicks on an app icon, that person has to click AND process the titles windows instead of seeing a visual preview as on Windows of the window.

So when you start asking questions, that terrible UI becomes a subtle UX difference.

That’s why this is all armchair designery about pet issues. You may like the way Windows works, that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean MacOS works ‘terribly’. It’s mostly just different from what you’re used to.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#480

Post by samuelstros »

tinus_hn wrote: post #479
samuelstros wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This theory is a subtle UX difference with larger outcomes. MacOS requires additional steps to see open windows while Windows does not. The right click Mac OS solution is the best example. By default, right click on MacOS is deactivated. Even if someone right clicks on an app icon, that person has to click AND process the titles windows instead of seeing a visual preview as on Windows of the window.

So when you start asking questions, that terrible UI becomes a subtle UX difference. That’s why this is all armchair designery about pet issues. You may like the way Windows works, that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean MacOS works ‘terribly’. It’s mostly just different from what you’re used to.

What is your intention?

Nobody said that macOS has "terrible UI". Some people expressed that the window management in MacOS is inferior to Windows. I laid out UX reasons why macOS window management is inferior to Windows.

I will not participate in further discussion.

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