California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#471

Post by Scharkenberg » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:29 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #376

Eelongate wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for I sincerely hope you're not serious about this. I took algebra in 7th grade and I was considered a remedial student with habitually poor grades. If you're telling me I was actually 2 years advanced by present standards, then the situation in California must be deteriorating s…

I attended underfunded rural public schools as well. The funding of a school district will often correlate with student performance, but in most subjects, it's not a causal link. Kids with families who value education do better. Kids with parents who punish them if they don't do their homework do better. When you isolate for income, there are large discrepancies in success between various cultural groups. Appalachian…

You make some interesting points, but children are neither machines nor lab rats. Conditioning can have deep psychological effects; those successful people that complain about their parents might have done some introspection and arrived to a different conclusion from yours. Professional success unfortunately does not equal happiness.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#472

Post by dkhenry » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

csa wrote: post #413

dkhenry wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many decades of the lived experiences of children in other countries disagrees with that research. Children in eastern European countries learn advanced concepts from as early as second grade. In asian countries they are introducing Algebra in 6th grade or earlier. This is the problem California finds its self in. They have wonderful "research" showing that kids pick up the concepts better if you wait till they are o…

> Many decades of the lived experiences of children in other countries disagrees with that research. Based on your reply, I’m fairly certain that you are not familiar with the research and your not familiar with what is actually happening in Eastern Europe, Kumon, etc. in relation to that research. As a professional in this area of research, I feel fairly qualified to say that I am. I am happy to agree to disagree ab…

I am glad that we can disagree, and I hope you would spend some time considering that while the research has progressed we have experienced a rapid decline in the subjective and objective quality of education.

Just because I completely reject the ideas you may be involved with researching doesn't mean I am ignorant of them, I just haven't been convinced that they are based in reality.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#473

Post by BoorishBears » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #456

chii wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable It's just "strange" that this is only done for academics, but never for athletics. The fact that academic results can be thought of in "equitable" terms, but not athletic results (aka, you must be able to run 100m in X seconds), points to some systemic, cultural bias in thinking that everyone is just as smart, and that genetics don't play a…

The issue isn't about whether an individual's academic performance is affected by genetics. The question is: are differences in overall (say median) academic performance of broad racial groupings (black, white, asian, hispanic, other) mostly the result of differences in genetics? Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics.

> Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics.

Lol what?

So uh are white people more genetically suited for lacrosse like 80% of the PLL is white, and us black people are somehow genetically suited for basketball because the NBA is like 70% black?

We should really look into these... lacrosse genes. And those basketball genes. Or not? https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1..., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18317378/

Your perceived difference in athletic difference is just showing the difference in opportunity just like the difference in education is. Of course this is the part where we start bringing in IQ results that show this same difference right?: https://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/124054/I...?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#474

Post by rayiner » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

My cousin who lives in California told me the other day that her son was a couple of years behind in math compared to where she was in high school back in Bangladesh in the 1990s. This is a nice suburb of Sacramento.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#475

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #373

dragonwriter wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Its not an anti-solution, and you provide neither evidence or reasoning to support your claim that it is part of a class of things that backfires. > Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people That is a real problem. Education is done in a culturally biased manner which perpetuates the disadvantage or marginalized groups is also a real problem. As is the fact tha…

>This is not about “watering down” math classes, but the opposite; it is about applying evidence to improve the quality and equity of mathematical instructions. This ignores a majority of students that are are well severed through the current curriculum and would advance more slowly under the proposal.

> This ignores a majority of students that are are well severed through the current curriculum and would advance more slowly under the proposal.

The framework cites the research that that isn't the case, where is yours that says it is?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#476

Post by oceanghost » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:59 AM UTC

carabiner wrote: post #186

fsn4dN69ey wrote: post #28

My parents introduced it to me at home around 4th-5th grade? So I was ~9-10yo? Not sure why delaying it will help, if anything the earlier the better. Everything I hear about "equity in education" seems to be making it worse, but more equally I guess. Like another poster already mentioned, reminds me of the Harrison Bergeron story by Vonnegut - seems like we are rapidly approaching that point. http://www.tnellen.com/…

Not all students are like you. I went to a low-ranked university my first year before transferring out. I met freshmen who really struggled with basic concepts, like what a vector is. I'm not sure they would ever get it even with all the tutoring in the world.

I tutored a 20 year old CS major who could not understand the equation to convert from Fahrenheit to Celsius. Nice guy, talented guitar player. Was not meant to be a programmer.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#477

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 4:13 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

You have to understand, this is no trap.

It goes as planned, the masses will rap.

Mad to the max, under the thunderdome.

Their new home, erected by truly democratic means.

Who are you to insist that someone intervenes?

Bow to your new transqueer queens!

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#478

Post by anm89 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 4:22 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #153

anm89 wrote: post #73

I think we should really hold off on addition and reading until the post graduate level. Once we take this to it's logical conclusion and reset the achievment bar to absolute zero, it will be impossible for there to be any inequality. All classess straight through undergrad could be limited to a combination of nap time and snack time.

The funny thing is that the actual logical conclusion is that parents with money will pay to have their kids sent to private schools that do teach the "advanced" stuff, and poor folks won't be able to afford it, so you end up with the same (or worse) inequality.

Yeah thats sort of the ultimate irony. You make it so the only way to get a good education is to pay for it

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#479

Post by azinman2 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 4:28 AM UTC

smolder wrote: post #380

moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

Knowledge/skill assessment is more complex than dictation. It's like a O(n) operation that necessarily looks at each student versus the O(log n) of dictating stuff to a class that asks some questions. The more evaluation and feedback are in the process, the more individualized it gets, the more burdensome and expensive it gets, generally. That's not to say we can't improve our teaching methods to automate some mechan…

Educational technology has existed for many decades now, built by academia and industry alike. It seems to largely have played a very minor role if even that in the successful advancement of the rate of educating children. If you think you have methods that could significantly improve that, you’d have a great impact on the world. I’d love to hear these bunch of ways.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#480

Post by onecommentman » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 4:31 AM UTC

carom wrote: post #225

unanswered wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not supposed to understand "the opposing argument", because it's fake. The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college. This will ensure that the demographics of the next generation are even more skewed toward social instabi…

This is absolutely what will happen. The state is forcing people to teach their kids at home and the children who don't have that support structure are going to get left behind. It almost seems like it will become common for students to skip grades.

Are there still public summer school programs for gifted students on advanced topics? There were in my day. And I assume those programs nowadays would teach students how to use online resources to advance even farther in math in their spare time than the summer school. Maybe extend those options to a broader range of students.

Yeah, home schooling may also get a big boost, with a stronger use of online resources that allow students to advance at their own pace. Maybe partial home schooling for math and science?

Motivated gifted kids with access to the Internet at home, and a stable home environment, aren’t going to have a problem. But they will need to pick up the ball that the public schools will be dropping. Gifted students in public schools are used to working around those sorts of issues.

Skipping grades would be problematic in my experience. Socialization and broadened perspectives have to be gotten somehow. Crash-and-burns are pretty common.