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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#471

Post by lelanthran »

adamcharnock wrote: post #4

Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

> Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

Sentient is not the same as sapient. You probably eat a lot of sentient animals, after all.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#472

Post by catlikesshrimp »

stickfigure wrote: post #428
omnicognate wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean by "interestingly complex". To say we are nowhere near understanding the nervous systems of fruit flies would be a massive understatement. Even for C.Elegans, for which we know the complete connectome and much more besides (and which has a thousandth of the number of neurons a fruit fly does), we're not close to explaining (or simulating) the behaviour of the animal in terms of the properties o…

Are you suggesting I should feel bad about squishing fruit flies?

Not if you need to, and your mind feels bad about it to keep the balance.

But if you do it for fun, I would keep my distance from you and stay close to a pike.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#473

Post by blitzar »

bloqs wrote: post #455
blitzar wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing him strung out on opiates (edit: turns out it was benzos) made you get off opiates?

If anyone with publically published material has demonstrated that they do everything for a specific purpose, it is Jordan Peterson. His body of work is plenty to demonstrate that he would not do something recklessly or without specific focus and purpose. We desperately want to derive causation from correlation, but that particular approach has created some incredibly negative movement in popular culture and society…

[flagged]

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#474

Post by ArchD »

lelanthran wrote: post #467
rich_sasha wrote: post #392

What does this mean in practice? By this definition, surely normal farm animals are sentient, but they are eaten, experimented on and frightfully frequently abused, so... what’s the change?

We aren't needlessly torturing them? Seriously, you cannot see the difference between a person who delivers a single killing blow and then eats the animal and one who watches it boil to death over 20m or so? "Getting joy from inflicting pain" is very different to "killing for food".

Lobsters & crabs are risky to eat unless they are very fresh (i.e. they have not been dead for too long). If you buy a dead lobster and then cook it, you have much less assurance about when it died hence the freshness than with a live lobster.

If you buy a live lobster, how are you going to practically kill it before boiling it? Try to penetrate the hard shell to impale the brain using a layperson's skills and equipment and risk slicing off a digit?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#475

Post by williamdclt »

lelanthran wrote: post #467
rich_sasha wrote: post #392

What does this mean in practice? By this definition, surely normal farm animals are sentient, but they are eaten, experimented on and frightfully frequently abused, so... what’s the change?

We aren't needlessly torturing them? Seriously, you cannot see the difference between a person who delivers a single killing blow and then eats the animal and one who watches it boil to death over 20m or so? "Getting joy from inflicting pain" is very different to "killing for food".

I don't think many people are "getting joy" from boiling a lobster. Even amongst those who do, I would guess that it's often out of morbid curiosity rather than from inflicting pain.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#477

Post by mensetmanusman »

Borrible wrote: post #196

I sense a new and creative way to annoy the EU and especially the French fishing industry boiling up. Who really cares for Hank, Jaques and Bob... Can't remember, is there a red herring in 'Finding Nemo'?

I was looking for this type of analysis. Part of me wonders whether this was the true motivation for Brexit.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#478

Post by lelanthran »

williamdclt wrote: post #475
lelanthran wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren't needlessly torturing them? Seriously, you cannot see the difference between a person who delivers a single killing blow and then eats the animal and one who watches it boil to death over 20m or so? "Getting joy from inflicting pain" is very different to "killing for food".

I don't think many people are "getting joy" from boiling a lobster. Even amongst those who do, I would guess that it's often out of morbid curiosity rather than from inflicting pain.

"Being indifferent to inflicting pain" is hardly different to getting joy from it.

After all humans who are indifferent to inflicting pain are considered just as psychotic as those who get joy from it :-/

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#479

Post by blitzar »

emteycz wrote: post #448
blitzar wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mistake he was hooked on benzodiazepines (lie corrected for you). Which I have just discovered are like opiates on steroids. I am shocked that as a clinical psychologist, he was unaware that it was such powerful medication. That said I think he has done some great work.

It's used routinely in clinical psychiatry and psychology. And you listen to your psychiatrist, even as a psychiatrist and especially as a psychologist.

> prescribed a low dose of an unspecified benzodiazepine following an "extremely severe auto-immune reaction to food" a few years ago

Does your psychiatrist dispense medication for an auto-immune reaction to food?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#480

Post by Yizahi »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #451
Yizahi wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on the precise definition of the word "feel" which I don't see in these comments so far.

You used the word feel in quote marks above. What was the definition you intended to imply there?

That's the problem - I don't know a strict and correct definition for it, not even close one. At minimum there are two polar possibilities - 1) any neuron firing due to damage is a "feeling of pain", or 2) only conscious brain can "feel pain". But there can be other definitions, multiple ones.

First option is possible but not productive for the discussion because then almost everything can feel pain, including some single cell organisms I think.

Second option is anthropocentric and at least at a glance looks incorrect.

The thing is the word "feel" itself is anthropocentric, basically we make analogue with our understanding of pain and project it on other living organisms.

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