A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#471

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

hattmall wrote: post #73

pwthornton wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just not borne out by the data. The gap between high school grads and college grads pay is getting wider and wider. You shouldn't go to college if you aren't going to be a serious student and you'll be a legitimate risk for dropping out. But if you are willing to commit yourself and get decent grades, you'll be in much better shape than most people with just a high school diploma. Your advice is also sounds r…

You make several times 90k?? So like how much? Several has to be at least 3 right, so $300k+? What degree do you have??

Human-computer interaction. I'm not in my 20s, and I'm not an individual contributor, so that skews my pay, but I also don't think I've come close to my ceiling yet.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#472

Post by yardie » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #453

ashtonkem wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. I guess it means what you mean by “succeed”. Going to college is and always has been a reliable way towards earning more money[0]. The issue isn’t that college doesn’t work, the issue is that it’s basically an asset bubble of sorts and the cost exceeded its value. If huge chunks of future generations skip co…

> It would be much better to reduce the cost of college so that it’s more valuable for more people To do that, would be very helpful if the government stopped giving zero interest loans. This is resulting in costs skyrocketing.

LOL. I wish the government gave 0-interest loans. As it stands in the US, Stafford Loans are higher than most car loans [3.73% undergrad, 5.28% graduate, 6.28% PLUS]. Costs are skyrocketing despite government loans. It's not the working/middle class students asking for new buildings, new "centers of research", new dorms, etc. Colleges are building these things, giving you the bill, and your options are go:not go.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#473

Post by tck42 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #364

pelasaco wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's exactly how racism works right? You segregate people by how they look like and you make them believe that because how they look like and their origins they are less important then the others. Kind of funny how we humans think: "let's correct a mistake repeating it over and over again".

When one of progressives guiding philosophies is “The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.” then this is exactly the plan. It’s all in their texts and one only has to read them to see plainly the type of policy they work towards.

That quote, in context, is available here.

https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2020/june/ibram-x-kendi-d...

I think it's pretty clear from the full text that he's not advocating for racism against past racists or their offspring (which, intentional or not, is what your use of the quote makes it sound like).

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#474

Post by pc86 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #360

Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. Pleased the next generation is waking up. End of the day if the loan can't be written off, if the loan is just handed out to 18 year olds and has almost no limit then the organization that asks for the loan will inevitably balloon out of all proportion and no longer be reflective at all of the value you get ba…

35, renting and another 12k left here. I am in the (relatively) lucky position that my loans are only about 6% interest so it's not quite an emergency for me to pay them back. Selfishly I stopped making extra payments to see if Biden actually kept his campaign promise of a minimum $10k forgiveness, but of course as soon as he was elected that disappeared.

I know classmates of mine (2008) who still have 20, 30, 40k in debt. Even some of the kids who came from a bit of family money still struggled for the better part of their 20's to pay everything back.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#475

Post by PaulHoule » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #11

PaulHoule wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proliferation of this attitude... https://www.amazon.com/Aint-No-making-2nd-Second/dp/B002NAUW...

https://openlibrary.org/books/OL1271149M/Ain%27t_no_makin%27...

To spoil a little, this book considers a group of low-income whites and a group of low-income blacks.

As teenagers the whites have a pessimistic attitude about success but the blacks are more optimistic. Barriers to the success of both groups are looming.

The first edition of the book stops there: one is left with the feeling that the plight of the two groups is not that different (e.g. "systemic racism" is a real thing but doesn't seem salient when you are know "white people with black problems") Somehow, however, the blacks believe that "they can overcome".

In a follow-up study a decade later both groups are doing poorly, but the blacks in particular have had their hopes dashed by poverty, problems with the law, problems with work, etc.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#476

Post by nradov » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

Frost1x wrote: post #410

davidhunter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting observation and matches with my experience. I'd add: 1) There's a race to the bottom with services in terms of pricing. For example, NHS GPs have strict time limits within which to provide a particular service. These time limits have reduced over the years and so individual doctors are capable of providing a better service but are can't given the constraints. People rarely are willing to pay mo…

I blame the extreme penetration of capitalism everywhere. We've created a culture where everyone thinks like a business and looks to do the minimal effort for the maximal compensation. If you don't do this, "you're dumb" (and, unfortunately, maybe there's some truth to this). In a culture obsessed with looking for exploitation opportunities at every corner, what do we expect? Everyone is running so "lean" and "effici…

People living in communist cultures also looked to do the minimal effort. Sometimes less than minimal if they could get away with it. Human nature.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#477

Post by pwthornton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #375

pwthornton wrote: post #37

The thing that struck me right off the bat was that the lead photo of this story is of 18-year-old with a PS5 and pretty sweet setup in his bedroom. I don't have anything deep to add to this, but if you can sit at home in your childhood bedroom indefinitely playing video games and working menial jobs, maybe the allure is there.

Read the article he actually has two jobs one of which is music production which he's passionate about and invests his money into crypto. What can university truly offer an 18 year old who already knows what they want to do and is already doing it without an expensive education. Wish I was that on track when I was 18 and he'll probably be ahead of his peers who went to college by the time they graduate.

We don't have a lot of details as to what "invests his money into crypto" means and how that is going. The article doesn't touch on his music and music production skills, both of which could be honed substantially with a further music education. They could also be honed a lot by playing in a band and committing to a lot of practice. People can be self taught, but it generally requires a lot of practice and purpose, and this article doesn't touch on whether or not he is doing that.

You can break into music production without a degree, of course, but it's going to be a challenge in the middle of nowhere Minnesota.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#478

Post by a123b456c » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #467

ashtonkem wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. I guess it means what you mean by “succeed”. Going to college is and always has been a reliable way towards earning more money[0]. The issue isn’t that college doesn’t work, the issue is that it’s basically an asset bubble of sorts and the cost exceeded its value. If huge chunks of future generations skip co…

>> Going to college is and always has been a reliable way towards earning more money[0]. The issue isn’t that college doesn’t work, the issue is that it’s basically an asset bubble of sorts and the cost exceeded its value. That last part about exceeding it's value contradicts the notion that it currently IS a reliable way toward earning more money. At least net more money. IMHO a bunch of professors should be able to…

Your idea sounds like a public university.

We could even collectively own it through our state government.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#479

Post by alistairSH » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #116

atoav wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a certified EE and have a MA of fine Arts (film). Living in Europe where I had to pay 350 Euros per semester (which included a public transport ticket for the whole province), I didn't have to make a choice between the two. I did both because I was interested in both. After university I was well equiped to do freelancer work in my field and earned well. I don't think this "you have to be hard or else you won't s…

> "you have to be hard or else you won't survive"-mentality Europeans often have this opinion but I don't think it's an accurate reading of the issue. The issue is not that Americans work too hard, it's that this hard work is no longer actually amounting to anything. In the past, you could pay for college by working summers at the local restaurant. Today the average debt is $30K and you still won't get a decent job.…

To clarify a bit... 42% of students graduate (undergraduate studies) without any debt. And 78% of graduates have less than $30k in debt.

The numbers aren't great, but the majority of students finish with either zero debt or a very manageable amount of debt. There is a small fraction of students taking massive loans that skew the overall picture.

And bachelor degree holders continue to earn, on average, $1 million more than high school graduates over their career.

All that said, I agree college should be affordable without loans. Summer jobs, co-ops/internships, etc.

https://www.aplu.org/projects-and-initiatives/college-costs-...

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#480

Post by icare_1er » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

icare_1er wrote: post #389

lyaa wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has experience with the educational systems of the middle east, I find it amusing how you are misinterpreting the situation. It's extremely hard for women in these countries to get good careers in any field other than teaching or medicine especially since they are often forced to marry and leave the work force (they can't work without their husbands' permission and they almost always handle all child c…

So: "women choose a career that would give them less pain". You can flip it any way you want, you will always end up with the following conclusion which demolishes your feminists dogmas: that women and men have inherently different interests, which, big news, is not surprising, given that they are different.

You speak like someone or something is forcefully preventing a girl from studying IT if she wants to. I like how feminists make it sound like they live under the Taliban. Give me one actual example of a girl that was prevented from doing what she wanted.... it's the opposite. Women are freer than ever to do whatever they want. Bad luck for feminist dogmas: it produces the opposite result of what they hoped for, and confirms the gender bias.