An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology • Hacker News Board

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#471

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #425

rubyn00bie wrote: post #406

So the M1 has turned me off of Apple products because, quite frankly, I don't want to spend (more) of my time fixing shit a trillion dollar company broke and doesn't care to fix. This though, this will be the nail in the coffin with my 25 year relationship to Apple. I probably wouldn't even have batted an eye at it to be honest, iff, Apple hadn't been selling me on the idea that their platform is "private and secure.…

I have absolutely no comment on Apple that you or anyone else hasn’t made. Except your comments about hash matching, the whole point is it goes to manual confirmation, they don’t just detect an illegal hash and come arrest you. But do you seriously think this isn’t going to be the standard for Android, Windows, ChromeOS, OSX, etc coming at degrees of time or implementation? I know all the Android people are just thin…

[deleted]

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#472

Post by echelon » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

websites2023 wrote: post #459

echelon wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why do the "CSAM" perceptual hashes live on the device and the checks themselves run on the device? Those hashes could be anything. Your phone is turning into a snitch against you, and the targeted content might be CCP Winnie the Pooh memes or content the people in charge do not like. We are not getting this wrong. Apple is taking an egregious step to satisfy the CCP and FBI. Future US politicians could easily b…

> Future US politicians could easily be blackmailed by the non-illegal content on their phones. This is a jeopardy to our democracy. US politicians should not be using normie clouds full stop. This is a risk and always has been.

Do you know which of your kids is going to be a politician? Better keep them all off the internet to keep their future career safe.

This is why it's important to stop now.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#473

Post by giantrobot » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #408

sathackr wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They scan things I send them. They don't (publicly announce that they) scan things on my device.

The Apple feature discussed here is for photos being synched to iCloud Photos. It does not scan arbitrary local content.

> It does not scan arbitrary local content.

Yet.

Before it was "only content uploaded to iCloud is scanned" and now it's "photos are scanned on-device". That's frog boiling that tomorrow easily becomes "arbitrary files are scanned anywhere on the device".

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#474

Post by jodrellblank » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

rubyn00bie wrote: post #406

So the M1 has turned me off of Apple products because, quite frankly, I don't want to spend (more) of my time fixing shit a trillion dollar company broke and doesn't care to fix. This though, this will be the nail in the coffin with my 25 year relationship to Apple. I probably wouldn't even have batted an eye at it to be honest, iff, Apple hadn't been selling me on the idea that their platform is "private and secure.…

> "has absolutely zero chance of being detected once you're generating the hashes until too many lives are ruined."

... the alerts go to Apple for human review. You think their human review won't notice a garbled nonsense picture triggering a false positive?

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#475

Post by stagger87 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #358

jazzyjackson wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider it’s not very interesting to argue with someone who is set in their ways, and the lack of counter argument is a lack of interest, not a superiority of viewpoint. Anyway I agree with you, and have been curious what the neural net hardware on the new iPhone will be used for. Turns out it’s for checking my photo library for child abuse, how futuristic!

> Consider it’s not very interesting to argue with someone who is set in their ways, and the lack of counter argument is a lack of interest, not a superiority of viewpoint. I have yet to hear a good counter argument though. If I had heard one, I would have changed my mind. So, I don't think I'm set in my ways. (I actually change my mind often when presented with new evidence!) I will always consider downvotes without…

You're being downvoted for eschewing website guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#476

Post by jodrellblank » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

gigel82 wrote: post #452

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolutely no comment on Apple that you or anyone else hasn’t made. Except your comments about hash matching, the whole point is it goes to manual confirmation, they don’t just detect an illegal hash and come arrest you. But do you seriously think this isn’t going to be the standard for Android, Windows, ChromeOS, OSX, etc coming at degrees of time or implementation? I know all the Android people are just thin…

I've been trying to get more clarity on this point (`it goes to manual confirmation`) but was unable to. Remember, they're saying this is something that happens on your own device, with your personal photos, not in the cloud. Is this saying they can randomly choose to upload any personal files (photos) on your device to their servers for a person to look at, because they match a "hash"? Is this not absolutely batshit…

You know these are photos you requested to upload to iCloud, which would already under the existing system be scanned once they get there, right? But if they get scanned first and then uploaded to Apple that's "absolutely batshit crazy"??

Edit reply in here because I'm rate-limited by drive-by downvoters:

Which part isn't clear to you?

- That they already scanned iCloud photos for such material? Here is an article from 18 months ago about it: http://web.archive.org/web/20210728085553/https://www.telegr...

- That this is only for iCloud photos and not everyone's every photo? "CSAM detection will help Apple provide valuable information to law enforcement on collections of CSAM in iCloud Photos" - https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ paragraph 3.

- Why? From the rest of that link, "providing significant privacy benefits over existing techniques since Apple only learns about users’ photos if they have a collection of known CSAM in their iCloud Photos account. Even in these cases, Apple only learns about images that match known CSAM."

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#477

Post by gigel82 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #476

gigel82 wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying to get more clarity on this point (`it goes to manual confirmation`) but was unable to. Remember, they're saying this is something that happens on your own device, with your personal photos, not in the cloud. Is this saying they can randomly choose to upload any personal files (photos) on your device to their servers for a person to look at, because they match a "hash"? Is this not absolutely batshit…

You know these are photos you requested to upload to iCloud , which would already under the existing system be scanned once they get there, right? But if they get scanned first and then uploaded to Apple that's "absolutely batshit crazy"?? Edit reply in here because I'm rate-limited by drive-by downvoters: Which part isn't clear to you? - That they already scanned iCloud photos for such material? Here is an article f…

No, that part is not clear to me at all. If they would be "scanned anyway", why would this system exist at all?

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#478

Post by jodrellblank » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #419

rubyn00bie wrote: post #406

So the M1 has turned me off of Apple products because, quite frankly, I don't want to spend (more) of my time fixing shit a trillion dollar company broke and doesn't care to fix. This though, this will be the nail in the coffin with my 25 year relationship to Apple. I probably wouldn't even have batted an eye at it to be honest, iff, Apple hadn't been selling me on the idea that their platform is "private and secure.…

I used to downvote people a couple of years ago who were shedding doubt on Apple’s commitment to privacy. Boy. I was so wrong. I fell for the Marketing and it made sense at the time “Their business is selling hardware and services, not ads. Ofcourse they are privacy advocates”. Pass laws and legislation. I admit I was wrong and it’s refreshing to see this whole thing unfold before my eyes. It just solidified my opini…

Is it not weird to have people argue that Apple should be above the laws of places like Saudi Arabia and China, but this should be dealt with by "pass laws and legislation" and then expect Apple must obey those?

...?

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#479

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #460

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. “We must do something , “It’s for the children” , “Even if it saves just one person” . No one has ever used this triple fallacy before. How big do you really think the market is on kiddie porn that there are people storing it plainly on their iPhones and are “safe” because they aren’t uploading it to iCloud? This is bullshit through and through. The best case is this is the step Apple needs to get E2E iCloud sto…

Your position is to simply deny that child porn or predation is a serious problem. I outlined that this was one of the sides in the debate - I.e. you take position 2, and have no empathy for position 1. The problem is that this is a political trap. You can’t win position 2 by painting technologists as uncaring or dismissive. ‘Think of the children’ works for a reason.

I don’t believe people sharing child porn on iPhones is a serious problem, no. Laptops, desktops, sure.

My position is that this system has far more likely harm than potential good. It’s not worth it.

It has nothing to do with not recognizing another side.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#480

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

bisRepetita wrote: post #465

zepto wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can see: 1. This is a serious attempt to build a privacy preserving solution to child pornography. 2. The complaints are all slippery slope arguments that governments will force Apple to abuse the mechanism. These are clearly real concerns and even Tim Cook admits that if you build a back door, bad people will use it. However: Child pornography and the related abuse is widely thought of as a massive probl…

>Child pornography and the related abuse is a massive problem >proposals for better solution How do you define "massive"? What makes you think that current approach is not working well enough? Of course, it's really bad as soon as the very first case. But we need to go beyond the sensationalist articles which talk about millions of pictures outthere. Even though this is, yes, a problem. In the US, it looks like the n…

> In the US, it looks like the number of child pornography cases is going down each year

Prosecuting fewer cases doesn't mean less abuse is occurring.

It doesn't even mean that the number of instances of abuse for which cases are prosecuted are going down, just that the number of offenders prosecuted is going down.