Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#471

Post by nindalf » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #467

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself. I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it i…

And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? I see a fair bit of attempts at understanding. Liberals love to write books like "The Righteous Mind" and "What's The Matter With Kansas?", attempting to understand conservatives from a liberal point of view. I can't think of anything comparable on the right. Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives, and it f…

> Liberals every time liberals lose elections: "understand harder", because the problem is with me.

Conservatives every time liberals win elections: "let's make voting harder", because the problem is still with liberals.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#472

Post by pseudo0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #432

bobthechef wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real failure is to not have dealt with the Syrian crisis Most migrants weren't Syrians, btw. But more importantly, I wish to remind you that when this mass migration was inflicted on Europe, the Left was very much in favor of this shitshow. There was no "dealing with the Syrian crisis" then (whatever anyone means by that). Nor was there any acknowledgement that the majority of migrants weren't fleeing Syrians.…

> acknowledgement that the majority of migrants weren't fleeing Syrians Which migrants? Where are they from in Hungary, then? > should suggest that the mass migration was weaponized By whom? For what purpose? > the Left was very much in favor of this shitshow The left (such as this can be described as a homogenous bloc!) was not in favour of the collapse of Syria, although they generally were against just repeating t…

Syrians were under 30% of the migrants arriving in Europe from 2015-2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis#Causes...

> The left (such as this can be described as a homogenous bloc!) was not in favour of the collapse of Syria, although they generally were against just repeating the mistakes of Iraq there. Without the attack on Iraq the collapse of Syria might not have happened, after all - it released a huge amount of arms stockpiles into the region which were taken up by ISIS.

Obama authorized the CIA in 2013 to supply the Syrian rebels with money, weapons, and training [0]. A lot of those weapons ended up falling into the hands of extremist groups like AQ and ISIL, either by "vetted" militia groups getting absorbed into larger ones or weapons getting resold on the black market. That may not have ignited the conflict, but it certainly prolonged it and contributed to the humanitarian crisis in Syria.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#473

Post by pell » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #296

pell wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

> he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the media, academia This is precisely where I claim you've gone wrong. > NGOs NGOs are not democratic institutions per se. NGOs can be incredibly detrimental to societies, whether intentionally or through incompetence, and can be used by billionaires to social engineer societies as they see fit. > the media The media are not democrati…

I think you're playing a bit of a semantics game here. Obviously media, NGOs and academia can be detrimental to democracy. So can elections or the judiciary too (e.g. Hitler's rise to chancellor of Germany was legal and Democratic).

When one calls these institutions Democratic it's because they do represent opposition and thus a control mechanism. This does not mean that they're infallible or act for the good of society by definition but if they do not exist the government operates - de facto - in a completely uncontrolled framework. Unsurprisingly this is why many governments do try to dismantle these institutions in the first place.

>[..] but that Hungary and other countries are the subject of foreign imperialist ideological bullying is not an open question as far as I am concerned.

I agree that this is worthy of a discussion however I don't think this is the topic in question at all.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#474

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #467

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself. I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it i…

And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? I see a fair bit of attempts at understanding. Liberals love to write books like "The Righteous Mind" and "What's The Matter With Kansas?", attempting to understand conservatives from a liberal point of view. I can't think of anything comparable on the right. Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives, and it f…

>>And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs?

Just top of my head:

Well, there is an argument to be made from purely economical perspective, avg. earner did see some improvement. Regardless of whether you think tax cuts were a good idea, Trump tax cuts did have intended effects ( even though they also added to an ever increasing deficit ).

He did pull out of JCPOA, which some of his electorate actually wanted for various reasons.

I maintain that listening is important. I would argue that understanding is more than important. You want an absolution and an easy answer of 'they are just assholes so I can be an asshole back', but it is not that easy. The people you dismiss have rationale for what they do. And now that you know this, you have no excuse but to act on that knowledge. Or, at least, use it to your advantage.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#475

Post by huetius » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

Dma54rhs wrote: post #169

dessant wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's important is respecting human rights, not ideological affiliation, and in that sense Hungary has noticeably regressed in the past decade.

Human rights are a human construct and constantly change over time.

If you deny any form of transcendence, which is the case in the positivist, technocratic culture of the West, then this is the inevitable conclusion.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#476

Post by nindalf » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #460

nindalf wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent's post FWIW. However, there is a strong tendency in mainstream thought to have great deference to "the People", however you define it. The voice of the People is the voice of God, in fact. So for a person to claim that well off people turned to radical thought out of boredom and ignorance might be correct, but would be considered not just outlandish, as you put it, but outright heresy. It's no…

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself. I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it i…

> the question of choice, mandates and so on in regards to government imposing choices upon you.

The government isn't imposing these requirements arbitrarily, it's your fellow citizens imposing it through the mechanism of government. For example, Big Government will outlaw and penalise littering not for the sake of it, but because that's what citizens want from their democratically elected government.

And as a citizen who fully supports restrictions in response to a pandemic - IMO the government can't require you to get vaccinated. But you can't demand to be allowed into nightclubs and cruise ships while unvaccinated. Fair?

> And yet, it is still a better option than benevolent dictator, monarchy or some sort of theocracy.

I didn't argue against democracy. I argued against putting the population on a pedestal. It's ok to criticise people's beliefs. And it continues to be ok even if those beliefs are held by a large group of people. If a large group of people think that vaccines cause 5G ... I don't think we should coddle them and think about it from their perspective and accommodate their idiocy just because they have plenty of company. Let's create rules so the damage they do is minimized.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#477

Post by dfxm12 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #467

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself. I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it i…

And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? I see a fair bit of attempts at understanding. Liberals love to write books like "The Righteous Mind" and "What's The Matter With Kansas?", attempting to understand conservatives from a liberal point of view. I can't think of anything comparable on the right. Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives, and it f…

Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives

Huh? Do you have any examples of this?

I think you might be generalizing too much what it means to be liberal and don't really understand who is or isn't progressive, even in the context of the US.

It sounds like by liberals, you are referring to the Democratic party at large. You have to understand, the Democratic party at large is barely liberal and nowhere near progressive. Outside of a small number of progressive politicians, they're perfectly fine to waste a majority in DC doing very little because the same corporate interests that back conservatives also back them. They behave like controlled opposition. You can do your part to vote for someone who truly is progressive in a primary election.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#478

Post by AnimalMuppet » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

_abox wrote: post #146

roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. I've travelled a lot in Eastern Europe and I think I know where this is coming from. When communism fell, people rejoiced in joining the EU and getting all the benefits of a free society. However what really happened was that those spoil…

It's not just whether peoples' lives improved. It's also how much they expected their lives to improve. If capitalism made life 10% better, that's good. If they expected capitalism to make life 500% better, then 10% isn't so good. And if they look around and see people whose lives are now 500% better, then the resentment is pretty natural.

It's not just that we (the EU, or even the West) let them switch to capitalism without a proper welfare system. We let them without giving them a government that knew how to run a capitalist country (because we didn't give them a government at all). But we let them have the expectations of a functioning Western government, instead of the expectations of a transitioning country that didn't really know how to do either democracy or capitalism.

It worked out pretty well for Germany and Japan to be conquered, and have the US spend a decade showing them how to do both democracy and capitalism. Just saying "Welcome to capitalism and democracy! Glad you're here!" turns out not so well. (The problem, of course, is that when you aren't a conqueror, the country doesn't want you to run it. And when you're fighting against the "evil colonialists" meme anyway, taking over is a really bad look, whether or not the results would be better in the long run.)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#479

Post by nindalf » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #474

jfengel wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? I see a fair bit of attempts at understanding. Liberals love to write books like "The Righteous Mind" and "What's The Matter With Kansas?", attempting to understand conservatives from a liberal point of view. I can't think of anything comparable on the right. Progressives seem to me desperate to understand and cater to conservatives, and it f…

>>And having elected Trump, what did they get aside from triggering the libs? Just top of my head: Well, there is an argument to be made from purely economical perspective, avg. earner did see some improvement. Regardless of whether you think tax cuts were a good idea, Trump tax cuts did have intended effects ( even though they also added to an ever increasing deficit ). He did pull out of JCPOA, which some of his el…

> He did pull out of JCPOA, which some of his electorate actually wanted for various reasons

How's that worked out for them? People in Appalachia feeling pleased about the pain inflicted on the Iranian people? Or are they pleased that Iran stopped adhering to the deal and have resumed uranium enrichment? Or are they pleased about Iran's expanding influence in the Middle East?

It doesn't take much to to give people what they want. Pulling out of the JCPOA took only a couple of days. But it was not a good decision, and the fallout wasn't felt by the people who pushed for it.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#480

Post by AnimalMuppet » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #305

roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

You think that you can "deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements and denying them the chance to drag the Overton window their way" forever, because if the right people run it, they can keep the wrong people from ever coming to power. That's misguided, for two reasons.

First, sometimes the wrong people come to power anyway. If they can't do it by blatant misinformation and propaganda, they'll do it by "wolf in sheep's clothing" tactics. Once they get power, the machinery is there, just waiting for them to use it to enforce their narrative. Sure, by protecting the narratives that are allowed, you might make it more difficult for such a one to come to power, and therefore less probable. You can't make it impossible, though. And if the thought of such machinery in Orban's hands (or Trump's) doesn't terrify you, you're not thinking.

Second, power changes people. You might be a perfectly fine, democracy-loving person. Give you that kind of power and you might not be the same person forever. As Elrond said, "I fear to take the ring to guard it. I will not take the ring to wield it" - and for very good reason. Too much power is a danger even to the good.