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Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

rarehistoricalphotos.com

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Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#471

Post by roenxi »

cies wrote: post #462
roenxi wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. There are complicated shades of grey coloured by propaganda. And if there was a right side of history, the US has a very credible claim to it. They've pushed science and the arts forward, promoted freedom as a cultural aspiration rather than rule by a monarch and generally acted as a credible supporting force for the greatest improvement of living standards the world h…

You say: > There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. But then you conclude: > There was a lot of cruelty, bloodshed and lies. [...] The US could certainly have been much worse. So you do accept there's a gradient of right and wrong. > The US could certainly have been much worse. But also a lot better! > But there has not yet been anyone in history who avoided that while being large. What we've seen is next lev…

There is a gradient of right and wrong. Most (realistically all) successful countries are on the wrong side of it.

I mean, look at the path the Europeans took to get to the modern era. Short periods of it, like the last 2000 years, have involved questionable acts.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#472

Post by cies »

cm2187 wrote: post #466
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

So the "right side" is a communist dictatorship?

https://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#473

Post by cies »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #457
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

You have to admit though, the US does have a history of producing good music.

Tell that to the generation of Viet women that have no men.

How dare you on an article like this...

But then sure, I have to admit. :)

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#474

Post by cies »

shp0ngle wrote: post #442
dash2 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry that this got downvoted. Large numbers of Vietnamese refugees fled Vietnam after the North's victory.[1] Arbitrary arrest and torture remains widespread in Vietnam according to Amnesty International. These were incredibly interesting and inspiring pictures and it's a shame to see the top comment hijacked by juvenile America-baaad-ism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people

Well nowadays the government is much better and basically tolerable. Torture and death sentences are still present, but I would not say widespread, unlike in the hardest years of communism. There are political prisoners, but it’s not random and widespread. Coincidentally, Vietnamese communist government nowadays tries to be Best Friend with USA.

> Torture and death sentences are still present, but I would not say widespread

Also in the US that you seem to defend...

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#475

Post by cies »

nabla9 wrote: post #459
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

US involvement in Vietnam was based on complete misunderstanding. The US is not know for their cultural or historical intelligence to begin with, but McCarthyism had wiped out many China and Asia experts from the State Department. US misunderstood the history of Vietnam and the goals of the belligerents. Vietcong also misunderstood the US. Ho Chi Minh and Vietcong were nationalists first, communists second. US feared…

> complete misunderstanding

So admit it, say sorry, pay reparations.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#476

Post by cies »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #414
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

A controversial assertion. If there's a "wrong side" of history, there must also be a "right side." Who do you consider to occupy that position?

I'd say post WW2 Scandinavia+Iceland has been rather exemplar. Bhutan comes to mind too.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#477

Post by notsureaboutpg »

pembrook wrote: post #463
dncornholio wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of goodwill the US had from ending WWII is sadly running out. US felt invincible after it and tried to do the right thing. But did not actually manage to replicate to what they did in WWII. Backup these results with data is not the way to go. You have to proof the same results could have not been achieved without force. Which is impossible to proof IMO

Sure, it’s impossible to prove what would have happened otherwise (given the chaotic reflexive system). But an interesting thought experiment, imagine, after ending WWII the US and its people simply sunk into the ocean. Then you’ve got a massive imbalance of power tilted towards Stalin and the Soviets with nuclear weapons and allied with China, vs a weak UK and France. While it’s impossible to prove the USSR wouldn’t…

But your alternative scenario is ridiculous. Rather than the US and its wealth and power disappear (causing a power imbalance in the process), what if the US simply didn't enter the 20 year long Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, as an example? That is very hard to say the world would be a worse place as a result.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#478

Post by geraneum »

pembrook wrote: post #443
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

Yes, the world is a chaotic reflexive system and trying to manipulate it always creates unintended consequences. The US absolutely does dumb stuff all the time, and power always gets abused. But for a contrarian view on the “US Bad” narrative, check out a book called The Accidental Superpower Here’s a good summary of the book: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-the-a... It presents an interesting…

I agree with you that a “US Bad” view which paints everything America as evil is misguided. But also the other extreme which portraits US as a savior and protector is also not true.

From the book:

> American disinterest in the world means that American security guarantees are unlikely to be honored. Competitions held in check for the better part of a century will return. Wars of opportunism will come back into fashion.

It sounds like a narrative where a powerful monopolistic entity backed by military power bullies everyone else and claims to provide “protection” for them.

When was the last time consolidated power in one place ended up to be good for people?

I believe a world with US as a powerful country along with other equally powerful nations (an equilibrium) is a much better place for everyone to live in (also for people of US). Maybe it’s naive, at least for now, but one can only dream.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#479

Post by ahefner »

cies wrote: post #475
nabla9 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US involvement in Vietnam was based on complete misunderstanding. The US is not know for their cultural or historical intelligence to begin with, but McCarthyism had wiped out many China and Asia experts from the State Department. US misunderstood the history of Vietnam and the goals of the belligerents. Vietcong also misunderstood the US. Ho Chi Minh and Vietcong were nationalists first, communists second. US feared…

> complete misunderstanding So admit it, say sorry, pay reparations.

No.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#480

Post by SyzygistSix »

shp0ngle wrote: post #411
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

Eh, my relatives are South Vietnamese, Vietcong was basically mafia and when communists won, they were horrible to the South. Not saying Diem government was that good, especially in their last months their anti-buddhist paranoia made them insane; but yeah communists were bad against the buddhists too once they came into power. But yeah Agent Orange and napalm were horrible. There is no debate about that.

The hardliner Communists may have never taken over the Northern government if elections had happened and Ho Chi Min was elected, as was expected. He modeled their constitution on the US constitution and asked the US for help.

It's a lot easier to see that in hindsight and I'm sure it was not easy at the time to make the right decisions though.

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