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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#471

Post by bradleyjg »

rhacker wrote: post #291
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

I think the reason they think it's subsidizing the rich enclaves is because they believe the rich enclaves aren't really working - they're just generating revenue from information advantage. We're just building systems of control and making money from it. Compare that to them cleaning out a grain cart or chopping up a 300 pound pig. What is work? And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for tha…

> And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for that pig that they had to raise for 6 months?

Effort has little to do with value. Utility also has little to do with value. See the diamond/water paradox for that second part.

There are certainly abuses in our society, rent seeking and outright fraud exist. But this childish rejection of capitalism that’s become trendy lately is tiresome. Capitalism is a technology that lifted billions out of poverty. Brilliant, earnest people (as well as some very evil people) tried alternatives in the last century and they failed horribly. No one has proposed plausible alternatives.

By all means we ought to couple capitalism in the private sector with a robust public sector, but to be against capitalism at this point is to be against human flourishing.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#472

Post by maxerickson »

ghaff wrote: post #119
UncleOxidant wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of this has to do with how we've been able to drive down agricultural costs by means of automation over the last century which has driven a move away from family farms to larger corporate farms. In 1900, just under 40 percent of the total US population lived on farms, and 60 percent lived in rural areas. Today, the respective figures are only about 1 percent and 20 percent.[1] Sure the coasts are creating more e…

You have to be careful with the 80/20 US Census split numbers between urban/rural. Between myself and a couple neighbors, we're on 100 acres next to even more conservation land. One neighbor has an apple orchard. Another a Christmas tree farm. The town I'm in is considered urban because we're near a major city and adjacent to another small city.

Statistically, most "towns" are considered urban, regardless of where they are located.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#473

Post by kasey_junk »

remarkEon wrote: post #464
kasey_junk wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military doesn’t track deaths in combat zones by race. They do track participation: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military Per those numbers whites/blacks/Hispanics are more represented in the military than similar civilian occupations. There is a higher percentage of Hispanic and black women in the military that might lower combat death numbers but there are a lot less high level black & Hispa…

The diversity of the military respective to the civilian population is not uniform (no pun intended). There are significant racial differences between services, and branches within services (e.g. infantry versus a combat support branch like quartermaster). It's very difficult to find accurate public data on this subject, but "the military is extremely diverse" is not as clear cut a statement as many seem to think it…

Sure. The document I listed shows a pretty outsized portion of the marines & Air Force are white.

But the fact remains the military is more diverse than the civilian work force. Which given no other data implies we can rule out arguments that military service is a particularly interesting form of sacrifice for the USA in racial dimensions.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#475

Post by iammisc »

hackyhacky wrote: post #439
iammisc wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course traditional conservative dogma also has extremely strong private safety nets. Just look at Utah and the mormons. Or the Amish. I mean, I understand that many people do not understand this, but I have found that atheists and the unchurched cannot comprehend just how substantial most church support programs are. In my old parish, my wife and I practically lived at the place and when we had our first baby, we…

What percentage of Christian ministries are actually providing these services? You don't say, just that some are. I would say that this is far from widespread phenomenon. Are Christian ministries actually providing comprehensive healthcare, or only those procedures that they morally approve of? If conservatives are the "real" humanitarians, why is there more poverty, more untreated diabetes, and worse healthcare in c…

Needlessly combative comment, but I'll bite I guess.

As to what percent, I can't give it to you. How do you quantify how much your friend likes you. A lot of this support is not organized, like the meal train I mentioned for my wife and I after our first kid.

WRT 'comprehensive' healthcare, many conservative people would find those procedures offensive and unnecessary.

> If conservatives are the "real" humanitarians, why is there more poverty,

Because it's relatively easy to be poor in a conservative area if you have community support. Lots of people to give you food and handouts. Like my aunt and uncle who retired way early and are technically impoverished, but live a good life, around family, friends, lots of food (from their church), etc.

> more untreated diabetes

because conservative people do not typically believe that life is the only end worth pursuing. This sounds strange given the 'pro-life' stuff, but you see it with COVID too. To a religious person, death is just the beginning, and what they perceive to be overly invasive measures to prolong life is not worth it. Whether it be diabetes dieting or covid lockdowns. Remember, the christian ethos is not utilitarian.

> and worse healthcare in conservative states?

All the good doctors realize they can make more money in blue states?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#476

Post by ralusek »

catgary wrote: post #252
not2b wrote: post #220

The US constitution requires that, for this to happen, Congress, the Oregon legislature, and the Idaho legislature must all agree. There's no provision that it is a matter that local country residents get to decide.

Would Oregon necessarily be against this? This seems like a great way to (a) get rid of nut jobs from the state legislature, and (b) get rid of a bunch of counties that sinkholes (financially speaking).

You are of the opinion that the "nut jobs" in Oregon are not currently residing in Portland, attempting to burn down federal courthouses for hundreds of days at a time?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#477

Post by tryonenow »

hackyhacky wrote: post #176
ModernMech wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struck by how "homeless" is included in a list containing "criminals", "arsonists", and "rioters". The homeless aren't people we need protection from, they're people we need to help.

Traditional conservative dogma requires the belief that poverty or misfortune follows from an inherent moral failing, never from circumstance. Therefore criminals cannot be reformed, homeless cannot be helped. The only solution is to remove them.

No, that's a partisan caricature of "traditional conservative dogma". Meanwhile on the opposite side of the aisle the rhetoric exclusively blames the system and socioeconomic factors for crime and the cycle of poverty, and leaves little to no allowance for the influence of culture and personal agency. Packaged nicely in Critical Race Theory, for example, and implemented with policies that are overly lenient to criminal conduct (catch and release, not prosecuting petty crimes like shoplifting, theft, vandalism, etc.).

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#478

Post by Spooky23 »

adventured wrote: post #451
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

> A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. By far the most heavily subsidized, most expensive, poorest and least educated people in the United States are the poor living in urban zones. It's not even remotely a close comparison in terms of numbers. You can see it in the crime statistics, you c…

Rural areas are pretty similar.

Just fewer people. Trailer parks instead of projects. Same crime, same misery.

The stuff that shocks the soul is a small fraction of the struggle and misery.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#479

Post by CocaKoala »

iammisc wrote: post #424
hackyhacky wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional conservative dogma requires the belief that poverty or misfortune follows from an inherent moral failing, never from circumstance. Therefore criminals cannot be reformed, homeless cannot be helped. The only solution is to remove them.

Of course traditional conservative dogma also has extremely strong private safety nets. Just look at Utah and the mormons. Or the Amish. I mean, I understand that many people do not understand this, but I have found that atheists and the unchurched cannot comprehend just how substantial most church support programs are. In my old parish, my wife and I practically lived at the place and when we had our first baby, we…

You say "Many we know in our town have to pay for this. How sad." but then you go own to observe that "If you join this ministry you essentially get a 'tax' each month".

So it's not that you didn't pay for it - you did, and continue to. But your support is contingent on following the rules of the community and maintaining your welcome, while the irreligious people in Portland had a more straightforward transaction.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#480

Post by nickff »

rootusrootus wrote: post #405
nickff wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>" The balance of seats in the Senate " Do you mean the House? I think the Senate would still have 2 senators per state, and state-level electoral results are unlikely to change if an alienated minority from one state secedes, in favor of joining a more (politically) similar state.

What happens when you get down to the last county and they also want to join another state?

If there were a one-county state, it would benefit from so much graft that they'd never join anyone else. Imagine having two senators, one congressman, and three electoral votes, all in one county! Every presidential candidate would stop there and promise them the moon!
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