What went wrong with the Texas power grid? • Hacker News Board

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#471

Post by brk » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

gregw2 wrote: post #213

gregw2 wrote: post #117

What went wrong is that the Texas legislature which owns Texas-specific grid process to avoid interference from the Feds didn't figure out how to also ensure Texas generator companies got compensated for weatherizing (and ensuring it was done). How many of the 24+6 recommendations from the NERC/FERC review of last time this happened in Texas (hint:2011) were taken up by the legislature or those at ERCOT they delegate…

Anecdote: All 7 developers in my Houston team (semi-geographically scattered in the city) lost power; half for >24 hrs (it's 10-25 degrees F here for the last 2-3 days). Most lost water for some stretch of time and some still don't have it. I don't think any completely lost heat (most have gas) but at least one person found their gas fireplace they were hoping would heat them up when out of power didn't really work t…

A "decorative" residential fireplace typically won't do much to provide real heat. If you want something that will make a difference it is usually going to be a sealed unit or something a little more purpose-built. Still, when you compare the burner in the average small fireplace to what you have in a typical furnace, it becomes clear pretty quickly that a fireplace is not likely to be a heat source of much merit, and even if it did have a decent BTU output, it's unlikely to be evenly distributed around the house.

tl;dr - a typical residential fireplace isn't an alternative to a furnace.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#472

Post by User23 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #285

dwohnitmok wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My experience with fireplaces is that the house winds up net-colder Why is that? EDIT: Oh are you saying that the rate of heating provided by the fire is less than the overall rate of heat leaving the entire house?

Right, if you think about it almost all of the heat from the fire goes right up the chimney. The brick of the firebox & chimney are generally built outside the building envelope for safety reasons, so any heat in the brick doesn't warm the house. The only heat that actually makes its way into the house is the radiant heat cast from the fire itself, which is small. The smoke is poison, and unlike a furnace, gas firepl…

The 180 year old house I grew up in has a central brick chimney for this reason. When you put the fire out before going to bed you have a column of brick radiating throughout the night. It’s still pretty chilly in the morning but it works quite well.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#473

Post by liamwire » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

svnpenn wrote: post #105

UncleOxidant wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully that's 5C and not 5F.

Why would it be celcius? I made it very clear that I'm in Dallas, and we don't use Celcius. That's not a knock against Celcius, frankly it's just a knock on you for the dumb comment.

Try not to let the situation turn you into such an asshole.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#474

Post by koolba » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #461

p1mrx wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "without septic" mean?

If you don't have sewer service, you'll usually have a septic tank instead. It's basically a mini waste treatment plant in your backyard, eventually the water will flow into the ground. Modern systems have pumps and such that depend on electricity to function.

I’ve never heard of a below ground septic system that required pumps. The only pumps for drainage are for sub level bathrooms such as in basements.

There is a significant overlap of septic installations and wells and most modern wells run on electric. But if you’re toilet’s basin is full, it doesn’t need any power to flush and drain. It just won’t fill again.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#475

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

svnpenn wrote: post #20

Dallas suburb here (Las Colinas). No power since Monday 6am. I had to get room at holiday inn. I actually got the room yesterday, but the hotel lost power after an hour, so I had to go back home and sleep in 5 degree apartment. Don't believe anything you read about "rolling outages". It's only rolling, if you define that as "out until it's not freezing anymore".

I'm wondering how rolling outages on the proposed schedules were supposed to work in this situation.

If they gave everyone power 50% of the time, everyone would crank everything they have to the max during those periods to get some heat into their buildings. Unless their total ability to consume energy is less than 2x their average consumption, it's not going to help.

To have any effect on overall power consumption, they first have to overcome this effect, and reduce power availability so people can't just shift the load.

Depending on creativity (if you have an electric tumble dryer... that's a fan heater), I bet many people could easily 10x their average power consumption.

If I had power for a short period of time and cold was an issue, I'd be dumping ~10 kW into water immediately (the only energy storage I can improvise on short notice).

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#476

Post by bluGill » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

gregmac wrote: post #416

tw04 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think any lost heat (most have gas) but at least one person found their gas fireplace they were hoping would heat them up when out of power didn't really work that well. I'm curious how they didn't lose heat. Any furnace built in the last 30 years, even gas, has an electronic control board in order to ensure it doesn't accidentally turn on the gas without a functioning pilot light and/or heating element (whi…

> No electricity = no heat, regardless of natural gas supply. You're confusing furnaces and fireplaces. A fireplace is soemthing that sits in a living space usually with a visible flame behind glass and is designed more for aesthetics than function. They typically run using a millivolt valve for the gas supply, with the voltage generated from a thermopile sitting in the pilot flame. They're often controlled by a regu…

They used go make furnances that didn't have a blower, hot air raises which gives circulation. You need bigger pipes and can never get high efficiency (went out of style before about 1960 is my guess ). If the furnace looks like it belongs in a horror film it might be this style.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#477

Post by zamadatix » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

bassman9000 wrote: post #260

Can we now add the profusely mentioned weatherproofing to the solar/costs? Because nuclear works better at 0°, at no added costs.

Should always include what's needed in the deployment and cost modeling, including whatever is needed so the South Texas nuclear plant doesn't have to shut off the reactor due to the extreme cold.

The problem here is not being prepared for the cold not the choice of energy production method.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#478

Post by da_big_ghey » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

dminvs wrote: post #217

da_big_ghey wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had power out for over a day and am fine. I would not pay any more money to avoid this once every thirty years, or even once a decade, for a few days. Mostly because paying the cost to prepare for one of these is reasonable, but preparing for all of them would be very expensive and I will trade cheap power for the occasional inconvenience.

Hey great. My blue-lipped toddler is very happy for you. Hour 42.

I get that cold isn't fun, but if that's something you're worried about, why not get a small generator or back-up heater ahead of time? We had a close call with this back in 2011. Unless you're really saying that you want to socialize the cost of keeping your toddler warm.

All that aside, I hope y'all stay warm. I know many cities are opening warming facilities, so maybe check if there's one near you.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#479

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #285

dwohnitmok wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My experience with fireplaces is that the house winds up net-colder Why is that? EDIT: Oh are you saying that the rate of heating provided by the fire is less than the overall rate of heat leaving the entire house?

Right, if you think about it almost all of the heat from the fire goes right up the chimney. The brick of the firebox & chimney are generally built outside the building envelope for safety reasons, so any heat in the brick doesn't warm the house. The only heat that actually makes its way into the house is the radiant heat cast from the fire itself, which is small. The smoke is poison, and unlike a furnace, gas firepl…

It takes very, very specific conditions (you'd have to go out of your way to minimize radiant heat transfer) for a fireplace to put less heat into a room than it removes with airflow.

Back in the day (i.e. 1700s) everyone heated with fireplaces. And many of them (e.g. 2nd floor ones) weren't that big.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#480

Post by wins32767 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #417

falcolas wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this is a truly "black swan" event. Cold fronts that bring snow and cold temperatures to Texas are becoming more and more frequent. This is simply the worst one so far .

Apparently its not, there was one in the 1940's that was worse. So its the usual "ignore any outlier we don't like" attitude that seems common in so many things. Plus, its not like this is unusual. The random unexpected heat wave in oct -> rolling blackouts. Unexpected storm during hurricane season -> power goes out for a week due to unmaintained power lines, etc. Its why you need engineers running your grid, not som…

> Its why you need engineers running your grid, not some politically connected organization which seems to prioritize free market theories above delivering power.

Why do engineers seem to think that it's possible to do things at scale without politics being involved? A statement that boils down to "trust this group of people that I am affiliated with because we know better" is an inherently political statement, even if you really do know better!