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New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

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Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#471
post #387
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "when you do $x, you drain society's emergency resources" is, IMO, an absurd argument. If this is true, then you need to point the finger at so many things. Rock-climbing. Mountain biking. And it progresses, to "anything even remotely risky", where "risky is now the absolute lowest common denominator". And of course, so many sports? Banned. This sort of "walking on eggshells" view of life is quite disturbing to m…

The key difference is that all of the things you’ve listed are legal. Society allows them because the risk comes with some reward, and we find it tolerable to accept or mitigate that risk. There are plenty of other activities like speeding where the rewards do not justify the risks, and the government has made laws to prevent that risk being taken. Unlicensed aviation, amateur gas boiler repair, knife-fighting...

Legality is not relevant. Morality is. Do not conflate the two, for they are not the same.

Example: society, and yes democratic ones, once told black people that they had no rights ; that they were animals; livestock. They also told Jews that they could not vote.

Was society spot on there?

What about the 1000s upon 1000s of examples of immoral laws which can be found, over time, and yes even now, which serves to invalidate the claim that following them is moral? From where I sit, each law must be measured against ones own morality. Failure to do so, is to cast the responsibility each human has aside, to instead wrap yourself in a shell of false righteousness!

I am not claiming "ignore the law", but merely that you may not determine what is 'right or wrong', merely due to the opinions of others around you, nor due to a societal system which attempts to balance thousands of pressures, and then pass laws.

Firstly, courts have repeated struck down sections of laws, or laws in their entirety, for this very reason. And often after those laws have stood for decades. By your logic, by your reasoning, to follow those laws is a moral requirement, yet one minute you are moral, the next immoral?

The stroke of a judge's pen, an argument in Parliament/Congress, and your morals are now right, or wrong?

No.

Your morals must be crafted on your own, examined, re-examined, see battle against your own interpretation of the universe, and grow with time. Laws are not this.

Laws are not morals.

Laws are not to be followed blindly.

To that end, I find your argument to be lacking. You assume that society is "better than the person" at determining "right or wrong". This is not so.

The government is not papa, mama, to be looked to for advice.

If you wish to discuss further, I am happy to, but I will not accept an argument that places legality on some sort of even keel, even subsuming morality.

No. Never.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#472
post #427
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tailgating is my biggest hate while driving. The tailgating driver is way over confident that he can stop in time. Its me who will pay the price when he can't. (No I don't drive slowly and do drive in the correct lane when there is a choice.) I hope AVs will fix this.

We don’t need AVs for that. Adaptive Cruise Control with self-breaking cars can do this now; it’s very much how I prefer to drive on a motorway, knowing the car will deal with it if I lose concentration or react late for whatever reason. Obviously these are optional extras on most cars, but the self braking and auto-distance-keeping could be made a legal requirement well before we see self-driving cars. I’d be all fo…

Good point. Sadly some high profile rearing ending tragedy might be necessary.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#473
post #412

In the UK fixed speed cameras are common. The problem for me is that they are put at places where people tend to speed, and that is often because it is a major road running through a village. Instead of building the proper infrastructure to allow traffic to pass through we just slow it down. My second problem with speed enforcement is it has caused a shift in policing. Speeding is an absolute and so is cheap to polic…

Speed cameras free up police allowing them to spend more time dealing with these other forms of dangerous driving.

I'm guessing you don't drive in the UK.

Speed cameras allowed the government to cut back on traffic policing completely, whilst still enforcing something. From memory there are something like 40k fewer police on our little island than before the financial crisis.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not the greatest example given that it’s killed one-point-six million people to date. That’s an awful lot of people, and if you don’t think that’s a terrible thing then I don’t know how you sleep at night.

It's terrible but similar number of people die every year in car accidents yet there is no moral panic. We can't even agree on finally enforcing speed limits but with the virus we closed the whole world. I mean pollution in major cities is a bigger health problem objectively than the virus and yet we still allow old diesels to drive in most of them. What I am saying is not that we shouldn't treat the virus seriously…

That “similar number of people” still die despite the enormous amount of work that goes in to road death reduction! We are doing things, and we are affecting the road toll. A quick look at Australia shows that from the worst years, 1970s, where ~3,500 died a year, we’re now down to ~1,200. That’s a 3x reduction because we did something. (Airbags, improved car design, improved road design, improved compliance, etc.)

If only we had some sort of analogue for doing something vs. not doing something re: COVID. Oh wait, we do.

- Number of Australians dead: 908.

- Population adjusted, 13.1x: 12,000.

- Number of Americans dead: 298,000.

That’s 25x as many. We did something, America didn’t.

Spotting a pattern?

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their testimony is given more weight not because of virtue of authority but by the familiarity and working relationships they enjoy in judicial system. Same reason they get lesser punishment, a familiar colleague or someone from the organization you work daily with, or any persona you identify with better ( same school, ethnic/ racial background etc) will likely be treated more favourably .

Lawyers enjoy an even better familiarity but not the same level of trust. Police officers are trusted to run after criminals and catch them so implicitly with the authority to do this also comes that trust. They need it to do their job. Otherwise they would face the same reaction when doing their job as you would as a normal person trying to act like a police officer. As for the punishment, there is no reasonable ana…

Lawyers can be in adversarial roles to the judge, i.e. it easier to antagonize a judge as a lawyer than a police officer.

Lawyers do enjoy preferential treatment than you and me in the system for couple reasons, one they the rules and are likely to use/exploit them, also various agents of system tend to be careful about procedure around a lawyer, one of the reasons you should hire a lawyer asap if ever arrested.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#476
post #318
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if speeding is correlated with those other causes of accidents. It may not always be the cause of accidents but is evidence of bad judgement and easy to detect. In an ideal world we could also catch people who fail to check their blind spot, or get distracted automatically. Also, it does make the environment less hospitable for pedestrians and cyclists which is a good enough reason alone.

"(exceeding the one-size-fits all speed limit) is evidence of bad judgement" This is not as self-evident as you assert. Do you have anything to back up your claim?

Judgement is subjective. I would argue that the safest way to drive is conservatively and with caution. And that your own emotions, time constraints, and judgement about safety are not sufficiently compelling to override that.

Of course as a society we are forced to strike a balance between safety and utility. Where you strike that balance is political and not entirely objective.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#477

My issue with the strict enforcement of speed limits is that safe speed for a given stretch of road varies drastically based on conditions. These would include weather, light level, traffic density, vehicle capabilities and condition, and driver experience and aptitude. It's not possible to set an optimal speed limit for all these conditions, so normally speed limits are set quite conservatively. Of course it is theo…

I think you're being overly optimistic regarding human behaviour, I'm doubtful more training will massively change how reckless people will be. That's not to say I'm against the idea I'd be interested to see the evidence removing limits reduces accidents, I should imagine there'd be lots of data for roads that have had their speed limits reduced.

This suggests that a speed limit is beneficial if it's set near the engineering-recommended limit for a road, but becomes detrimental when set significantly below that level: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212135021.h...

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#478
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think so, but people have been prosecuted for warning other drivers about them.

Source?

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1118798/speed-trap...

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#479
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of my problem with speed cameras everywhere. I respect the idea, but speed limits many places are too low given that roads and vehicles have improved significantly and they have not changed much to keep up. I would be all for more appropriate speed limits and better enforcement of speeding - and congesting traffic by failure to yield to faster drivers behind you.

While car safety has improved[1], for places where people still walk regularly like NY and Boston, going way over the speed limit is dangerous to people that don't happen to be in cars. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-08-12/why-are-c...

Yes. Any conversation like this can be expanded, because limits are only one tool among many that need to work together, and changes in each location need to be evaluated case by case - where divided roads / freeways would be the primary beneficiaries. But that article indicated the larger problem even in the city was infrastructure design and people exceeding speed limits rather than the limits themselves.

In places where we now have a 25 mph speed limit, if modern tech proves able to reduce accidents by 95% because of accident intervention tech / fsd etc in 5-10 years, should we raise the speed limit to 35 even though the accidents would then be more dangerous to pedestrians? Surely the answer in some cases would be yes, and others no. Or since most people drive above 25 anyways right now, should we just increase the limit now and increase enforcement and penalties? These are the types of changes I am proposing, as well as reducing the incentive to speed due to frustrated drivers passing road hogs unsafely, etc by enforcing minimum speeds and requiring courtesy yields as well. Just because you are driving slow does not mean you are not part of the problem.

Re: New UK police speed gun can read license plates from half a mile away at night

#480
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine was traveling across france on a motorcycle (this was decades ago) and one day had to get home to england quite quickly. So he got on the tollway and went quickly. But apparently they checked entrance and exit times on the tickets and would calculate your speed, so he "lost" his ticket and paid the max cost to be safe. I guess it worked.

In France they don't do that. At least not yet. There are a lot of automatic speed radars (at a single point), and a bit fewer average speed radars but they work over a few km at most (and don't interact with the toll).

He told me they check the entrance time on the ticket and when you get off at the exit they know approximately how long it should take you. And they would wave you off to the side if you made it say 120 miles in an hour instead of two. This was a long time ago.
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