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Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

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Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#471

Post by refurb »

theshrike79 wrote: post #334
howlgarnish wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but if you're starting a family, essentially free child care and schooling up to and including university is pretty nice. Hell, if you're accepted for full-time studies at University, the government pays you to keep studying (opintoraha).

This is the correct answer. If you're a single software engineer, don't come to Helsinki. Go to SV or somewhere where they pay you mid six figures to work your ass off 16 hours a day. But if you're either too old to find that exciting or have children, Finland is a great place to live. Just the subsidised child care itself will make it worth it. No "college funds" either.

I'm not sure subsidized childcare covers it.

If you're comparing 3k EUR takehome to a mid-level engineer in the bay area which is probably 15k USD (rolling in bonus + stock), that's 144k USD more per year take home.

Even for 2 kids at $24k per year ($48k total), you can cover childcare and have another ~$100k USD left over.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#472

Post by antris »

refurb wrote: post #370
ed wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to talk to folks who actually use national healthcare services. By and large they are happy with it. Instead you’re just repeating industry FUD https://www.npr.org/2020/10/19/925354134/frame-canada

Sure, people may be satisfied with their system, but that's all they know. And that goes both ways, for Americans and others. As someone who has experience both the US system and a universal system, there are things you get in the US system (if you have insurance) that you won't get in other systems.

> As someone who has experience both the US system and a universal system, there are things you get in the US system (if you have insurance) that you won't get in other systems.

Can you elaborate?

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#473

Post by underlines »

Finland and Helsinki seems great. But if you're willing to lower the #1's a bit, and go more to like #3's for most of these things, you can go to Zurich, Switzerland and easily get an USD 8K / month net salary for a marketing project manager job and USD 10-14K for a senior developer role.

Not wanting to pitch countries against each other. All places have their advantages and disadvantages.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#474

Post by howlgarnish »

bradlys wrote: post #428
theshrike79 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the correct answer. If you're a single software engineer, don't come to Helsinki. Go to SV or somewhere where they pay you mid six figures to work your ass off 16 hours a day. But if you're either too old to find that exciting or have children, Finland is a great place to live. Just the subsidised child care itself will make it worth it. No "college funds" either.

Once you get into the big companies, not all teams are work yourself to bone. Many people work 40 hour weeks (with an hour long lunch included in that time) and have very little to no responsibilities outside of core hours. Vacation time can be quite decent as well. (4+ weeks plus quite a few holidays) Even the unicorn startups don’t always work you to the bone. Honestly, I see it more like many people who /want/ to…

Well, there's also a large cohort that has been told that they should be going to the best schools and getting the best grades and the best internships and the best jobs at FAANG etc. Then they end up writing internal CRUD apps or tweaking ad models to eke out 0.01% more engagement, but they keep grinding because that's all they've ever known.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#475

Post by vor0nwe »

cbmuser wrote: post #349
rebuilder wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as language goes, my advice for learning a new one would be the exact opposite of what you say. Force yourself to use the language all the time, everywhere. Otherwise people will just default to English with you, and you'll have a hard time learning the local language. It'll be very stressful for a few months, but, in my experience, will get you conversing in about half a year.

As an avid language learner, I can confirm this. I always make most progress when I’m forced to use the language when I’m in the country. I’m surprised OP isn’t fluent with the language after 10 years in the country.

As an avid language learner myself, I would be inclined to agree, were it not for the fact that about half of my father's siblings really have no aptitude _at all_ for languages.

One uncle has been living in France for over 40 years, but anyone can still hear he’s a foreigner, most Dutch will immediately recognize his accent as Dutch, and many can immediately pinpoint the region he grew up in. (Part of the reason is probably: he himself doesn’t care. He just talks —sometimes with hands and feet— and his interlocutors manage to pick up enough of what he says to suit him.)

An aunt used to live in Brazil for years, and never could get the hang of Brazilian Portuguese. Her son has been living in Brazil for some 15 year now, and is still not fluent in the language...

People's ability to pick up languages can be totally unrelated to their general intelligence.

That said, I _personally_ agree that immersion is the best way of learning a new language. But it still does take time, and you've got to have the opportunity.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#476

Post by sriku »

waihtis wrote: post #311
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As extra for the language. Even in tech you should just accept that you NEED to start learning Finnish. You don't have to be proficient speaker, but for normal office chat you need to be good enough to interrupt and step in with English if you want to participate. I've seen many foreigners quit because they felt like they were intentionally left out of casual conversations, but you really have to understand that spea…

Problem is that it's a super difficult language where you can't draw any help from any other languages you might now. Plus it's obscure and if you move out of Finland you'll likely never use it again. I can see why people don't want to invest huge amounts of time learning it unless they plan to stay for the rest of their lives.

I live in South India and I find Finnish easy to my ears (I speak Tamil) due to the double consonants and double vowels that Tamil shares.

In fact a Finnish friend of my dad's learnt Tamil via remote from one of our poets .. to get proficient enough to translate some ancient poetry into Finnish!

Ref: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_H%C3%A4meenniemi

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#477

Post by osullivj »

antris wrote: post #472
refurb wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, people may be satisfied with their system, but that's all they know. And that goes both ways, for Americans and others. As someone who has experience both the US system and a universal system, there are things you get in the US system (if you have insurance) that you won't get in other systems.

> As someone who has experience both the US system and a universal system, there are things you get in the US system (if you have insurance) that you won't get in other systems. Can you elaborate?

I've used the NHS and the parallel private system in the UK. With private medicine everything happens quicker: initial consultation, treatment, operation etc. Inpatients tend to get private rooms, with a food menu, and routine meds like sleeping pills are handed out more freely. However, there are things the UK's private system can't do, probably because it makes no commercial sense. The really big stuff - major surgery like transplants - only happens in the NHS. Roughly one third of UK govt spend is the NHS; ~130B GBP last time I looked. So only the NHS has the financial, human and technical resources for eg heart transplants. Another important point is risk appetite. Private hospitals can choose not to do risky stuff to avoid litigation. The NHS is govt backed, so can take more risk. Ultimately the NHS is budget constrained, so can choose not to offer new and expensive treatments. IMHO the US system can deliver better results than the UK if you're very wealthy. However the UK system will be better for 99% of the population. Disclosure: I'm a British citizen working for a US bank in London, and I benefit from my employer's excellent private healthcare scheme.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#478

Post by burntoutfire »

hervature wrote: post #340
BurningFrog wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helsinki is the capital city and cultural center of a nation. The best of the best in Finland live, work, and perform there. For cities, as so many other things, it's not all about size.

For the great people of Oklahoma, the best of the best also live, work, and perform in OKC. OKC is also the capital (of Oklahoma). I won't touch culture because it's pretty pompous to assign culture to a single location. I'm sure the Sami people disagree with your location of the center of culture, I'm not comparing cities and I certainly am not implying OKC is the same as Helsinki. Merely pointing out that the OP's…

> For the great people of Oklahoma, the best of the best also live, work, and perform in OKC.

A lot of them live Oklahoma, since it's easy to move to the coasts for opportunities. A lot less people leave Finland (it's harder to do to), so Helsinki gets higher proportion of its country's best.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#479

Post by dharma1 »

theshrike79 wrote: post #466
dharma1 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add to this, if you are software engineer in SV and can work remotely with your current company (and keep making SV money or close) - Helsinki is absolutely worth thinking about if you think you would enjoy a Nordic lifestyle! Great startup/tech scene, close to nature, Finns are fun to hang out with. Best experienced during the summer, but the 90 day relocation "trial" with everything organised sounds pretty…

Also if you're working remotely, there really isn't a point in moving from another country to Helsinki. It's way too expensive. For the price of a 1 bedroom flat in Helsinki you can get a hectare of land and a 100m2+ house a bit further up north. You'll still be practically next to Helsinki by American standards =)

That's true, if you want to live a bit more countryside (still within 1hr drive of Helsinki) you'll get a lot more for your money

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#480

Post by JacobSuperslav »

0xfaded wrote: post #374
brryant wrote: post #2

This is honestly a great way for tech entrepreneurs to experience Nordic living. The fact is Finland has one of the most startup friendly environments around: — top schools (Aalto U. produces incredibly talented engineers) — startup friendly ecosystem (cheap rents, cheap internet) — Finnish work culture (direct, no nonsense, hard working but balanced) — fantastic food and beverage scene in downtown Helsinki My wife i…

I moved from SF to the Nordics on a startup visa and feel obligated to temper expectations whenever I see these. - There are good schools and people, but don't expect the density of top people to be anything close to SF. Finding friends to talk shop with requires active engagement. - Every European country is trying to promote itself as startup friendly, and what you are seeing from a distance is being heavily curate…

I agree with everything you said, except that moving away from SF can only be ideological. To me there are some other advantages:

1. some of the cities here are walkable and cyclable. can't say the same about SF. 2. my kid goes to a free kindergarten and it's been fantastic 3. healthcare doesn't revolve around money, and again, great experience with the public sector, including my wife giving birth here. it's a breath of fresh air when you understand that money is not really a factor when it comes to diagnosing and treating you.

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