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Why we are suing the Administration

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Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"things you think are false" and "libelous" are, in the US, vastly different standards.

I'm familiar with the standards and I stand by my assessment with full confidence. Twitter mobs routinely make up facts and spread completely unfounded misinformation that is demonstrably contrary to what evidence suggests. That's 3/4 of the criteria right then and there. [0] To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication…

You haven't demonstrated negligence. Nor did you demonstrate that the statement was made seriously. Elon musk called someone a "pedo guy" because he moved to Thailand, and was found to be fine because a reasonable person wouldn't take the statement seriously. Threading the needle between protected hyperbole and protected good faith mistakes is practically speaking not feasible. Negligence is a higher standard than what you seem to believe.

Keep in mind, making an accusation not totally supported by evidence is not defamation. In the US, it falls on the defamed to both prove that the accusation is false and prove that the accuser knew it was false. Not that they had doubts or uncertainty, but that they knowingly lied. Making an ultimately incorrect acusation based on incomplete evidence isn't legally negligent.

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#472

Your police shoot unarmed black people and your president defends them. Free world my ass.

You can't do this sort of flamewar here, regardless of how strongly you feel about whichever countries. We ban accounts that do this, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24341017.

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#473

Your police shoot unarmed black people and your president defends them. Free world my ass.

Your country throws millions into forced labor camps and forces them to disown their culture

You can't do this sort of flamewar here, regardless of how strongly you feel about whichever countries. We ban accounts that do this, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules.

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you make it sound like the police are a murder cult. they shoot because of a crime incident.

> they shoot because of a crime incident. Even if all fatal police shootings were directly related to a crime committed by the person who is killed (they're not), we have to ask ourselves whether such shootings (or killing by other means, e.g. chokehold) are an appropriate technique for law enforcement. Which crimes or actions warrant shooting or killing someone, in your opinion? When we look at data that show killin…

your 'chance' of being shot and killed by police is not based on skin-color but on behavior.

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#475
post #28

Regardless of what you think about TikTok, the banning of an app in the interest of "national security" is largely unprecedented. The jump from banning Huawei from building critical public infrastructure to banning an app that hasn't even conclusively been proven to behave in any uniquely dangerous ways seems to be an intense, unjustified escalation of this conflict. [1] You may disagree with me on the strict securit…

I agree. Moreover, I think the whole thing kind of represents an adoption of the Chinese position. Since Deng ("let in fresh air, but keep out the flies"), China's attitude has been to liberalize economically but reject political rights. Political rights like speech, affiliation, and such were seen as dangerous. Media, especially, was seen as something highly dangerous. Anything with potential to cause another tianme…

The Deng quote is slightly different: "If you open the window for fresh air, you have to expect some flies to blow in." ("打开窗户,新鲜空气会进来,苍蝇也会飞进来。") What you describe is true though, especially since 89 (TAM, collapse of soviet union)

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm familiar with the standards and I stand by my assessment with full confidence. Twitter mobs routinely make up facts and spread completely unfounded misinformation that is demonstrably contrary to what evidence suggests. That's 3/4 of the criteria right then and there. [0] To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication…

You haven't demonstrated negligence. Nor did you demonstrate that the statement was made seriously. Elon musk called someone a "pedo guy" because he moved to Thailand, and was found to be fine because a reasonable person wouldn't take the statement seriously. Threading the needle between protected hyperbole and protected good faith mistakes is practically speaking not feasible. Negligence is a higher standard than wh…

[0]Negligence is "a failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances."

Essentially, it comes down to what a reasonable person would do.

A reasonable person would probably not invent claims without evidence. Let's take the Kyle Rittenhouse case as the example since it's so recent and visible. The Twitter mob openly calls this individual a murderer, white supremacist, and terrorist, among other things. They also invent and distribute "facts" which are material to the case such as where the individual got the AR-15 used during the event, and the circumstances surrounding its use. [1]Significant effort is undertaken to obfuscate the truth through the editing of video footage and censoring of contrary opinions.

> Elon musk called someone a "pedo guy" because he moved to Thailand, and was found to be fine because a reasonable person wouldn't take the statement seriously.

This is clearly not the case when dealing with situations like the above, and many others which lead to individuals being deplatformed, harassed, or physically threatened, or even attacked. There can be no doubt that claims of racism, sexism, homophobia, or other bigotry are taken seriously by all the major platforms and society as a whole. It is common knowledge that such claims cause harm.

A reasonable person would not make damaging claims without any supporting evidence, manufacture fake evidence, or aid in the distribution of either.

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/negligence

[1] https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/09/02/facebook-declares-...

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't demonstrated negligence. Nor did you demonstrate that the statement was made seriously. Elon musk called someone a "pedo guy" because he moved to Thailand, and was found to be fine because a reasonable person wouldn't take the statement seriously. Threading the needle between protected hyperbole and protected good faith mistakes is practically speaking not feasible. Negligence is a higher standard than wh…

[0]Negligence is "a failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances." Essentially, it comes down to what a reasonable person would do. A reasonable person would probably not invent claims without evidence. Let's take the Kyle Rittenhouse case as the example since it's so recent and visible. The Twitter mob openly calls this individual a murd…

But there is supporting evidence for all of those claims. It is not ironclad (or you may disagree with it). But they are not claims made without evidence. And reasonable people can, and do, disagree about specific pieces of evidence.

Furthermore, repeating a rumor is not negligent. So if I make a claim without evidence, but you repeat it and cite me, only I have done something wrong.

To get concrete, there is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse murdered someone. He's been charged with first-degree intentional homicide, this is Wisconsin's equivalent of Murder.

There is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse is a white supremacist. He travelled across state lines to disrupt and intimidate people at a protest for racial justice. While he may not be a card carrying neo-nazi, that's evidence.

There is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse is a terrorist. He (presumably) unlawfully used violence and intimidation against civilians for political purposes. He's listed on wikipedia's list of right-wing terrorists in the US[0].

So now you have to show that not only are the above statements false, but that they are so blatantly false, that it is unreasonable for a person to believe them, and that to reach those conclusions would require negligence. But of course, you can't really do that. Wikipedia agreeing with me pretty much proves that my claims aren't unreasonable. They may be wrong, but they aren't negligently so.

> They also invent and distribute "facts" which are material to the case such as where the individual got the AR-15 used during the event, and the circumstances surrounding its use.

Coming to incorrect conclusions after good faith investigation isn't negligent. At the moment, as far as I know, Rittenhouse got his rifle within the state of Wisconsin, from a friend. But not knowing that information, it is not unreasonable and negligent to state "He must have acquired the gun illegally, since he is underage and can't transport it across state lines." That's a reasonable conclusion. It's wrong, yes, but it's reasonable.

> This is clearly not the case when dealing with situations like the above,

Just to be clear, you are saying that it is reasonable for a person to call someone else a pedophile without any evidence, but calling someone who shot and killed someone else, on video, a murderer, is negligent? Am I getting that right?

Previously I said that you misunderstand negligence. I'll repeat what I said and add that it appears that you, personally, have an extraordinary level of prudence. Which is totally acceptable, and perhaps even an admirable trait. But it is not ordinary. Legally speaking, you appear to be "unreasonable".

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#United_St...

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[0]Negligence is "a failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances." Essentially, it comes down to what a reasonable person would do. A reasonable person would probably not invent claims without evidence. Let's take the Kyle Rittenhouse case as the example since it's so recent and visible. The Twitter mob openly calls this individual a murd…

But there is supporting evidence for all of those claims. It is not ironclad (or you may disagree with it). But they are not claims made without evidence. And reasonable people can, and do, disagree about specific pieces of evidence. Furthermore, repeating a rumor is not negligent. So if I make a claim without evidence, but you repeat it and cite me, only I have done something wrong. To get concrete, there is evidenc…

TLDR - At the time the claims were made, there was not enough evidence available to make any potentially defamatory claims. If the same standards were applied to financial reporting, the reporters would be in jail already.

> To get concrete, there is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse murdered someone. He's been charged with first-degree intentional homicide, this is Wisconsin's equivalent of Murder.

These claims were coming out prior to him being charged and prior to any credible sources reporting details of the story. There was an organized attempt to get ahead of the narrative and paint a particular picture of the events. The fact that it's actually rather difficult to find the details of the 'victims' and their criminal histories is one indicator of that. The below cited debate on the wiki entry is another. And that is without diving into the twitter discourse where it's possible to find every level of bad faith "debate"

> There is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse is a white supremacist. He travelled across state lines to disrupt and intimidate people at a protest for racial justice. While he may not be a card carrying neo-nazi, that's evidence.

He worked in Kenosha as a lifeguard, and was there cleaning up the neighborhood [0]unarmed earlier in the day. Saying his presence there is evidence is like saying that my fingerprints inside my own home are evidence of whatever crime may have happened there.

> There is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse is a terrorist. He (presumably) unlawfully used violence and intimidation against civilians for political purposes. He's listed on wikipedia's list of right-wing terrorists in the US[0].

This "evidence" came into existence after the claims were already circulating. [1]The original entry was Kenosha Riots, and there is ongoing organized action to alter the title and information to change the narrative. None of the sources listed existed at the time that the defamatory claims were made.

> Coming to incorrect conclusions after good faith investigation isn't negligent.

There was no investigation, so there cannot have been good faith in the investigation. The individuals claiming he 'crossed state lines with an illegal AR-15' are making multiple false claims at once. He didn't cross state lines to participate, he was already there. He didn't cross with the AR-15, it was given to him by a WI state resident. Even the possession of the weapon itself may not have been illegal as the state statutes leave wiggle room that has yet to be explored.

The ultimate point is that the people who initiated many of these claims are journalists and news publications who should have made a good faith effort to produce accurate reports. They failed miserably to do so, and their reports still carry significant inaccuracies. Some of these reports featured video clips that were edited to better support the narrative. None of these reports, at least that I've been able to find, show all of the video evidence that is public thus far.

> Just to be clear, you are saying that it is reasonable for a person to call someone else a pedophile without any evidence, but calling someone who shot and killed someone else, on video, a murderer, is negligent? Am I getting that right?

Not exactly. I'm saying that Elon Musk is one individual who has no following because of his 'investigative journalism' credentials. He's just a dude who is rather well known for being 'out there'. On the other hand, people absolutely do follow CNN & & & as a 'credible' source for such reporting.

[0] https://nypost.com/2020/08/26/suspected-kenosha-gunman-kyle-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kenosha_protests#Requeste...

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#479
post #472

Your police shoot unarmed black people and your president defends them. Free world my ass.

You can't do this sort of flamewar here, regardless of how strongly you feel about whichever countries. We ban accounts that do this, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24341017 .

Irony is dead. Let them have a go at Chinese censorship while removing posts not beginning "thank you kind sir for your opinions".

Re: Why we are suing the Administration

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is supporting evidence for all of those claims. It is not ironclad (or you may disagree with it). But they are not claims made without evidence. And reasonable people can, and do, disagree about specific pieces of evidence. Furthermore, repeating a rumor is not negligent. So if I make a claim without evidence, but you repeat it and cite me, only I have done something wrong. To get concrete, there is evidenc…

TLDR - At the time the claims were made, there was not enough evidence available to make any potentially defamatory claims. If the same standards were applied to financial reporting, the reporters would be in jail already. > To get concrete, there is evidence that Kyle Rittenhouse murdered someone. He's been charged with first-degree intentional homicide, this is Wisconsin's equivalent of Murder. These claims were co…

None of what you've said actually matters. Again, the standard isn't that you need to be correct, but that the statements you make would be made by a reasonable person. They can all be ultimatelywrong as long as they aren't unreasonable.

It isn't unreasonable to call someone who shot someone else a murderer. It just is not.

It is not unreasonable to conclude that someone who travelled to another state and then shot someone was doing so for nefarious reasons. It may be wrong, but it isn't unresonable.

> This "evidence" came into existence after the claims were already circulating

I'm not saying that using the Wikipedia article is evidence for the claim. I'm saying that the claim cannot be unreasonable if wikipedia ultimately reached the same conclusion.

Again, you don't need to cite someone else to be not defamatory. As long as the statement, standing alone, isn't unreasonable, you're good.

> None of these reports, at least that I've been able to find, show all of the video evidence that is public thus far.

That doesn't make them defamatory.

> Not exactly. I'm saying that Elon Musk is one individual who has no following because of his 'investigative journalism' credentials.

Your original complaint was about random individuals in twitter mobs making defamatory statements. They also have no credentials. So are you now saying that actually all the random people on Twitter are fine, but it's CNN and NBC and the news organizations that are making defamatory claims?

Because that's a reach. You really think you know defamation better than the lawyers who work for those companies and specialize in defamation?

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