Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#471

Post by CarbyAu » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 3:47 AM UTC

chrisjarvis wrote: post #277

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I tend to agree with this, I've always thought ridesharing was rather beautiful in terms of economic efficiency: pair those with extra money but who don't want to drive at that moment with those with extra time who want money. As long as there is adequate education about the all-in costs of car ownership I am all on board. And at scale it reduces traffic (or at least amount of cars in an area).

In ages past my first thoughts upon hearing of Uber was entirely about "matching" as you described.

I recall thinking it would be great for adhoc rideshare commuting to/from work.

Somewhere it turned into a money sucking business platform. Maybe because it required funds to run the servers required and went off the rails from there?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#472

Post by jasonhansel » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 3:50 AM UTC

tyre wrote: post #3

For those wondering why Lyft and Uber doing the shutdown, it's to bully voters into voting their way on Prop 22 in November. They had two years to adjust their businesses for a proposition approved by voters. They chose to spend nine figures fighting it in the press and the courts.

> For those wondering why Lyft and Uber doing the shutdown, it's to bully voters into voting their way on Prop 22 in November.

Why is this getting downvoted? The strategy seems fairly obvious: by threatening to end service, they're trying to scare voters (and the legislature) into repealing this law.

Uber and Lyft could, under this law, continue to operate in a legal, legitimate manner, no longer relying on the legal loopholes that this law closed. The fact that they would rather shut down entirely than follow their own state's laws is deeply disturbing.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#473

Post by lopmotr » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 3:50 AM UTC

Fauntleroy wrote: post #371

treeman79 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good insight. Coming together is tricky when there is no common grounds. One side wants wealth to be fairly Evenly distributed to help the poor. The other side helps the poor by creating so much wealth that that most poor people have a lot of wealth. These days you can be considered poor and have housing, ac, heat, tv, video games, maybe a car, and weight problems because food is so cheap. This only leaves those who…

More likely that you'll have weight problems because healthy food and lifestyles are much more difficult to acquire and maintain without sufficient wealth.

Really? Walking is free but driving isn't. More food costs more than less food. And lots of boring difficult healthy food (eg. veges) is cheaper than more pleasurable easy food (eg. fast food). Being unemployed provides more time to do healthy things than having a busy job.

I'd say the reason poor people are unhealthy is the same as the reason they're poor - unwillingness to work.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#474

Post by DangitBobby » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:00 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #416

dahfizz wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perfectly lays bare why I disagree with the ruling: you don't actually think drivers are employees, you just want them classified as employees so they get X benefits. It's a legislative hack. It's seems so obvious to me that we need to create a third kind of worker: not an employee, not a contractor, but a new category that has some of the extra freedom of contracting and some of the benefits of employment. It's…

No, they pretty much are employees, sorry. Under the current framework, they fit the definition of employee well in the letter and perfectly in the spirit. Employees can have literally every single freedom that Uber drivers have. Nothing is disqualifying. I agree that once we reform Healthcare and Unemployment, we can create a third category if we want, but there are actually no inherent disadvantages in freedom of b…

>once we reform Healthcare

Your optimism is inspiring, but there's been "bipartisan support" for meaningful healthcare reform going as far back as Nixon. Probably further. If the people who actually make the rules wanted it done, it would be done.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#475

Post by sudosysgen » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:03 AM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #474

sudosysgen wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they pretty much are employees, sorry. Under the current framework, they fit the definition of employee well in the letter and perfectly in the spirit. Employees can have literally every single freedom that Uber drivers have. Nothing is disqualifying. I agree that once we reform Healthcare and Unemployment, we can create a third category if we want, but there are actually no inherent disadvantages in freedom of b…

>once we reform Healthcare Your optimism is inspiring, but there's been "bipartisan support" for meaningful healthcare reform going as far back as Nixon. Probably further. If the people who actually make the rules wanted it done, it would be done.

I share your pessimism, it was a rhetorical device, hence the "Once we're done reforming", which will likely never happen. Since Biden is against any form of Universal Healthcare, it is literally impossible before 6 years into the future.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by pishpash » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:07 AM UTC

gnopgnip wrote: post #459

pishpash wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are on earnings after top-of-the-line deductions for business expenses including gas and depreciation that they'd lose on the W-2. Drivers aren't stupid as you think.

If they were employees they would be required to be reimbursed for business expenses including commercial insurance, and mileage to cover gas and depreciation.

The reimbursement requirement is baselined with respect to minimum wage, so it could be effectively $0. If it is not $0, the form would be additional W-2 pay, which is allowed by law, and this would be subject to all taxes. On top of the tax loss, calculation would not be at the generous IRS mileage rate that drivers currently exploit, but true expenses which most say are lower. Yet people continue to think drivers are stupider than they are at doing what they do every day. It's pretty fucking arrogant.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#477

Post by Retric » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

sida wrote: post #410

Retric wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

you know uber lets drivers set prices now right?

Globally they can’t, there is a tiny program in some parts of California designed presumably for local regulars, where some drivers can influence rates. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/uber-lets-some-cal...

Of note the way it’s implemented is actively designed not to be used. Effectively Uber lets those drivers multiply their existing calculation by some number but not for example simply set a minimum charge or actually negotiate individual trips. Further, regularly declining trips is not accepted.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Post by mancerayder » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:30 AM UTC

kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

I'm curious what you mean by failed - do you mean in the model and they had to change? California?

I'm seeing Supershuttle availability right now (not in California but in the U.S.)

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#479

Post by Retric » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:35 AM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #445

paxys wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an independent contractor Actually you were an employee, just misclassified. If you took them to court you would likely win. Being able to set your own hours, working part time, working for other employers, quitting at any time - these are all possible in an employee relationship.

Just because they are possible in an employee relationship, setting your own hours is typically not representative of an employee relationship. Doing the same job for multiple customers is typical of an independent contractor relationship. I see no evidence of misclassification where this person was employed by multiple employers. Which of the leagues do you believe was his employer?

Working 2 to 3 part time jobs is extremely common in the US for low level staff and has been for decades. These people say when their available and then get scheduled in.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#480

Post by parineum » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 4:44 AM UTC

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I rarely use ridesharing apps but I always ask about this kind of thing and I have the same takeaway as you.

The drivers seem to like the situation they are in.

I could really care less about the "technically..." type of arguments. The drivers don't think they are being exploited, they like the job and the freedom it gives them. Any law that puts an end to that is _bad_ for those people.

Just because these laws were put in place to help people doesn't mean they always help people. The people who are supposedly being helped by the law here think it's hurting them. The law is supposed to serve the people, not the other way around. The law needs to change to allow these people to continue the situation they enjoy.

It drives me crazy to read people arguing about the technicalities of the law and ignoring what the supposedly exploited people are saying.