Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#471

Post by goatinaboat » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:51 PM UTC

moksly wrote: post #383

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

This is a good point and it’s easy to get caught up in it. Because it makes perfect sense. One of the reasons the west has graduated toward freedom and a more free society is because it worked better in the long run. You can go back and look at how the government letting people do business rather than banning them lead to rises and falls of empires because rich families would simply relocate to the free countries rat…

One of the reasons the west has graduated toward freedom and a more free society is because it worked better in the long run

I notice your use of the past tense there; it did work well for the West but the situation in China is very different - they have been able to leapfrog to a Western level of technology without having a free and open society. So the rules are different now. The real test is now, starting at the same level, who can sustain it and who can pull away.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#472

Post by bayesian_horse » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:52 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #260

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

> it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. It’s weird to point out this double standard but then apparently take the side of both countries banning foreign media companies.

This shouldn't be about market access but rather about the power media companies wield.

The debates around Facebook, Twitter and so on regarding political speech and misinformation is bad enough, and those companies at least don't have malicious intents and are criticized mostly for their inaction. With a company operating under Chinese law this is a whole other can of worms.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#473

Post by DuskStar » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:52 PM UTC

linlucas wrote: post #335

flywheel wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You replied with nonsense. The fact is China is good at one thing: ripping off other countries inventions. Name one high tech thing in the last 1,000 years invented in China - no, not iteration, but INVENTED. Since gunpowder, China has stagnated.

Huawei has more 5G patents than any other company. By far.

And considering how much it's alleged they stole from Nortel, that's not irreconcilable.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#474

Post by aww_dang » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:53 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #347

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair, right? The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

In principle I believe in unilateral free trade, but idealism must be tempered against pragmatism in the practical sense.

In the literal sense for a TikTok ban to be democratic it only has to be voted on. We can call it 'democratic' if a democratically elected politician can legally prohibit the app.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#475

Post by eru » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:53 PM UTC

tchaffee wrote: post #329

chillacy wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of similar to tarrifs no? The government selectively (through lobbyists and deals) picks which types of things are taxed (sometimes to unprofitability). Other things are banned entirely. Not saying Kinder Eggs would be missed as much as Tik Tok, but this is historically something the government does.

How do you plan on taxing something that is free?

What's the problem with that?

Obviously, an ad volarem tax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_valorem_tax) that is a tax that is proportional to the market value of a transaction like VAT wouldn't do anything.

But there are other kinds of taxes.

Eg fuel taxes in many countries are usually per litre, not per dollar of petrol. See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Tax_rates

Carbon taxes proposals are also usually imagined to apply per kg of carbon emitted. Exactly because there's no prior price of carbon emissions.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#476

Post by henriquemaia » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:54 PM UTC

esperent wrote: post #434

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it's unfair, but when you defend something for moral reasons or claim to have a moral high ground, you should stick with it even if it's unfair, right? The West has always said that the Chinese bans to Western social media and tech companies were authoritarian and antidemocratic. How is this less so?

Context is important. When someone keeps playing dirty and you find yourself losing to them because of that, sometimes it's important to show that you can play dirty too.

I agree that this has tones of adjusting your moves to match those of your adversary.

I just think that the losing side, when adopting similar moves, is not playing dirty per se. It's just leveling the field. You can only play foul if both players share, at least superficially, a similar moral framework.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#477

Post by bayesian_horse » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:55 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #460

chaostheory wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why give China access to our domestic market when they refuse to give us access theirs? What do you propose then?

Why restrict what American customers can do just because China restricts what Chinese customers can do? Do you also suppose that it would be a good idea for you to hit your head repeatedly against a wall, if I start doing so?

The bigger problem is that when American users use TikTok, the Chinese government gets a say in their social media exposure.

Nobody should be using TikTok voluntarily, in my opinion. There should be a PR-effort led by governments, parties or NGOs to tell people why they shouldn't use TikTok.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#478

Post by eru » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #467

eru wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to use those metaphors, it's the Chinese who are poking out their own eyes, ie who are restricting what their customers can have access to. That's a great injustice to the Chinese people. But Americans poking their own eyes out in 'retaliation' makes neither Americans nor Chinese customers better off.

> neither Americans nor Chinese customers better off. who said anything about making customers better off? it's done to hurt the other party's profit and expansion and influence.

Well, ostensibly politics is done in the name of making citizens better off. Customers are citizens.

Of course, if you get arbitrarily cynical, you are right. But then we'd need to have a very different discussion.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#479

Post by paulcole » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #430

Twisell wrote: post #293

Not US citizen here. Can someone explain how in a democracy the chief executive can singlehandedly decide to ban a media only a few month before elections? I can't make any sense of that, it seems wrong at so many levels...

The short answer is that he can't. The president has no power to ban TikTok. The president also has no control over how the app is distributed or its connectivity. He can say whatever he wants, and he can strongarm the agencies he has some control over (like the FCC), but there's simply no mechanism by which a ban can be enforced, legal or technical. Unless Google and Apple decide to voluntarily remove it from their…

> The president has no power to ban TikTok

This is the #1 mistake people have made over and over with Trump. “He can’t...”, “He won’t...”, “He wouldn’t...”, “He’ll never...”.

He doesn’t play by any rules. You have to assume anything and everything is on the table. If he really wants to ban TikTok he’ll either get it done or scorch the earth trying.

Do you really think once someone says, “Mr. Trump there’s no mechanism for you to legally ban TikTok” he’ll be like, “Oh yeah my bad, I better get back to work on helping America through this pandemic.”

He knows he can say whatever he wants and strongarm whoever he wants. That is his literal playbook!

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#480

Post by goatinaboat » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #465

winstonmanor89 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, no war drum needed, just be bilateral, they ban our shit, we ban there shit. They open their market, we open our market. Easy.

Just do unilateral free trade. Why would you restrict what your customers (ie citizens) can do, just because some despotic regime somewhere abuses their citizens?

Why would you restrict what your customers (ie citizens) can do, just because some despotic regime somewhere abuses their citizens?

One reason Chinese products are cheaper is that they largely ignore environmental concerns. So by allowing the trade all we do is put our own, well-regulated factories out of business, whilst increasing the net pollution in the world, and instead of quality products that last we get junk destined for landfill, thus perpetuating the cycle. So there are very, very good reasons to look at the big picture here.

And that's before you even get into the slave labour...