Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#471

Post by bluecalm » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:13 AM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #459

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? Because you like him. If he were somone you did not like you'd be "good riddance". How do you fell about James Damore?

It's not true. I don't particularly like RMS, I don't agree with his views about free software and I don't like GPL as a license. I also think his views on many political issues are naive, go against human nature and if implemented would cause a lot of harm.

Still, I think the way he was forced to go is shameful. Some journalists couldn't interpret a simple statement (sadly very common), started an outrage and the pressure became too much. I hope he sues them and wins enough money to have a peaceful retirement. I don't want a world where some of the biggest contributors to technological wealth we have access to can't freely state their views, qualms and doubts or even start a discussion about controversial moral issues.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#472

Post by ihatemondays » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:17 AM UTC

dlp211 wrote: post #160

ddtaylor wrote: post #87

I don't agree with many things RMS says, but I am not a fan of this cancel culture where character assassinations are orchestrated routinely.

Cancel culture, or as most adults like to refer to it, consequences.

This.

And on top of all that, he quite literally voluntarily resigned, it's in the title.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#473

Post by bigbugbag » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #459

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? Because you like him. If he were somone you did not like you'd be "good riddance". How do you fell about James Damore?

I disagree, it feels like a witch hunt because it is one.

I read the original post that started this witch hunt and my baloney detector went off all along, in particular when I read the quote from RMs stating one thing and the author calling for his removal misrepresenting and misunderstanding them as if they said the exact opposite.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#474

Post by bigbugbag » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

jimrandomh wrote: post #36

nemothekid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the counter argument for what Stallman wrote? I've seen that the "press is going too hard on him", but, honestly, I think they were justified. What is the "big difference" to you? If someone, personally, said to me that that someone be absolved of a crime, because the other, coerced, party was "willing" at that moment, I'd seriously question their morals.

Stallman wrote: "We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates." Here's the Vice headline ( https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... ): Famed Computer Scientist Richard Stallman Described Epst…

> They wrote awful words, and put them in his mouth, in order to support a narrative in which he said something which he didn't.

Actually they did not do that, they simply parroted what had been posted on medium by Selam G.[0] in her call to remove Stallman[1].

Not trying to defend the media, they clearly did not do their job of fact-checking and jumped of the bandwagon of making outrageous headlines to make money, but the actual responsibility of misrepresenting RMS words to call for his removal lies on the original author.

[0]https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/author/selamie/ [1] https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#475

Post by jkbjotnip » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:34 AM UTC

dlp211 wrote: post #146

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

And what standard is that—not allowing leaders to discuss cases objectively in public in case they might be misconstrued?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#476

Post by 1000units » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:34 AM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #445

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

This is ridiculous in a culture that elected and continues to support an accused rapist to its highest office. If the highest office in the nation (and many others) can have such a scumbag without him being forced to resign, how can we expect someone in Stallman's position to be perfect and PC with his speech so idiots don't misunderstand his direct style of speech? Such hypocrisy, such bullshit, this argument is.

I hereby accuse you of raping me. You're an accused rapist.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#477

Post by urbanjunkie » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:45 AM UTC

1000units wrote: post #476

mnm1 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ridiculous in a culture that elected and continues to support an accused rapist to its highest office. If the highest office in the nation (and many others) can have such a scumbag without him being forced to resign, how can we expect someone in Stallman's position to be perfect and PC with his speech so idiots don't misunderstand his direct style of speech? Such hypocrisy, such bullshit, this argument is.

I hereby accuse you of raping me. You're an accused rapist.

Pathetic woman-hating loser. You are a weak, uneducated, ignorant coward. I'm sorry your mother failed you so badly.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#478

Post by kelnos » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:46 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online, who don't act creepy around women, who don't have a sign on their MIT office that says "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)", who don't have a gross mattress in their office where they encourage people to lie topless, who don't try to pressure women into dating them by saying they'll kill themselves otherwise. All of those things describe RMS, things that have been mostly quietly ignored and hand-waved away for decades.

We don't have to tolerate people who make women feel unsafe and unwelcome in our (or any) industry.

You seem to be arguing the usual tired old thing: "but he's a genius and does such great work that we should tolerate the bad things he does". I really thought we'd started to move past that over the last few years.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#479

Post by lazyjones » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:47 AM UTC

Could someone please make a comprehensive list of the people and media accusing him of misconduct? It's time to start keeping track of them and being aware of their toxic characters every time we're dealing with them in some way.

First on the list: This guy: https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relations...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#480

Post by LaGrange » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:50 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

> RMS has called himself "borderline autistic".

As someone actually autistic, he doesn't get to blame being a douchecanoe on being autistic.

> His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum.

Then _learn_. Also, we're not talking about not getting social cues about when it's okay to start talking, we're talking his considered and repeated position on issues such as sexual assault, and his _actual actions_ towards teenagers.

> But if they do their work well they can stay. Others give them some room. It's called tolerance.

Great tolerance for the people your creeps chase out or abuse, thanks. You actually do have to pick, and if you pick people like RMS, you pick against all the people that can't - and shouldn't have to - deal with an environment people like RMS create.