SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#471

Post by objektif » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:05 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #272

rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

I don’t see why children should have their opportunity limited by what their parents can or can’t do (or even refuse to do). How is that meritocracy or equality of opportunity? That’s just old fashion inheritance.

You are absolutely right. If playing some sports that only rich can afford makes you more likely to get into an ivy league school then may be hardships should too.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#472

Post by gnicholas » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:06 AM UTC

remote_phone wrote: post #170

Glyptodon wrote: post #18

This seems likely to end up being ugly. For example wealthy people could buy or rent addresses in "adverse" neighborhoods, or charter schools might locate offices there, in order to attempt to improve scores on this metric. At the same time this won't be able to identify many adverse life circumstances like abusive parents, cancer, etc. What it does do is outsource components of admissions decisions the colleges may…

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

I recently heard of a high earning family that bought a rental/investment property in EPA, then when their kid got into the Tinsley program (school busing from EPA to Palo Alto/Menlo/Portola/Woodside) they decided to move there full time. Their kid now goes to a fancy school and they live in a development in EPA near Facebook HQ. So to all the naysayers, people are already doing crazy stuff like this to help their kids.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#473

Post by siedes » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:06 AM UTC

objektif wrote: post #463

siedes wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Asian myself. There has never really been a place for us on either side of the political spectrum. The left does not treat us as they do with other minorities, so they don't care about screwing us over while the right generally only uses us to pretend that they care about minorities to appeal to centrists/other. While the right's policies may benefit us a bit, culturally the right will be just as happy to screw…

Most Asians I know are very well educated and doing well. I bet they are probably much better off compared to other minorities in the US. When I was doing PhD 90% of my classmates were Chinese. I think it is a bit of a stretch to to say Asians are completely getting screwed in the US.

That's exactly what I mean though, your conclusion that Asians are better off than other minorities just because you saw a bunch of Asians in your elite college (who were most likely foreigners coming to study abroad anyway and not American citizens) is justification the left uses to disregard us lesser Asians in lower economic classes.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#474

Post by Jill_the_Pill » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #353

bilbo0s wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no dog in this race obviously, but doesn't that mean that instead of penalizing you for your parents' good character, we penalize poor rural and urban kids for their parents' bad character?

Not exactly. This adversity score penalizes people who good character (insofar as making sacrifices to provide better education opportunity for ones' kids is good character). Family A makes $X and goes through significant sacrifices (e.g. commuting 4 hours) to live in a wealthy neighborhood with good schools. Family B makes the same $X and lives a leisurely live in a cheap neighborhood with bad schools. Which should…

It seems you haven't spent much time in a "cheap neighborhood with bad schools." I can assure you that no one there is making $X. In my city, the average household income is $38k; the state average is $74k. Almost all people, including poor people, make sacrifices and want what is best for their kids.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#475

Post by jm__87 » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

wtdata wrote: post #329

In part this initiative rewards bad parenting and lack of responsibility for raising your kids. If you made imense effort to provide the best education possible to your child, to put him in a good school (even if that meant depriving yourself from a better material life and having 2 jobs), if you kept a non perfect marriage because that would be better for your child, if you only had one kid because you couldn't affo…

I don't really follow your logic. Bad parents are usually bad parents because they don't care about parenting or they care about other things far more than parenting - parenting just isn't their top priority. Their children's success in life is not top of mind, and some may not care how successful their kids are unless there is something in it for them. From my own personal experience, bad parents get annoyed when their kids are successful and they don't benefit directly in some way i.e. money. Or they are resentful and try to minimize your successes. Either way, bad parents think more about themselves than their kids - their kids being successful is not a reward.

If anything, perhaps it punishes good parenting. But I'm not sure it rewards bad parenting.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#476

Post by mirrorlake » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #408

mgkimsal wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of my own intelligence and skill... Fuck anyone giving me points for things i didn't work for or that are outside my control... Your "intelligence" is definitely one of those things completely outside your control. What you've done with it is at least partially under your control, but you probably weren't born with any sort of brain disorder, for example. EDIT: adding on things like your visual appearance -…

How? I chose to learn the things i learned outside of school and to an extent the things i chose to learn in both high school and university. I didn't have to learn those things. I could have spent my time watching tv or doing other things. I know the things i know because i spent time and effort learning them.

Think about an extreme case:

a hypothetical person who was born an autistic savant who is a musical genius. They sold out concert halls at age 9-10, playing the hardest classical music ever written. To what degree did they “earn” their skills and their genius? At a certain point you must agree that people are born with brains that are wired better, and they had no control over that. Effort should be rewarded, but luck should not. Determining how much of someone’s success was luck vs hard work is not at all easy to determine.

Through hard work and discipline, you did the best with the hardware you were given. But don’t think for a second that you wired your own brain.

Edit: and just to clarify, I think some fuzzy new metric on a standardized test will probably never summarize whether someone “earned” their score or lucked into it. My comment here is mostly a reminder to be humble.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#477

Post by kaitai » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

zasz wrote: post #405

rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

As a fellow Asian whose parents also sacrificed a lot, I'm sympathetic, but I would urge you to consider a couple things: 1. Like it or not, plenty of families in America have had it worse than you had, and would not find it at all impressive that you have never gone on a vacation or eaten out. 2. You should save your anger for the huge number of spots saved for legacies and athletes. Being the child of alumni means…

Lots of great points to consider here and I'll boost number (2). I'm struggling not to say something unforgivably cynical here.... .... ...so let's say this: getting the 4.8% of Americans who are of Asian descent to spend their time crapping on the 12.7% of Americans who are black, or even better spend extra time crapping on the 6% of college students who are black and at 'good' universities, is just wonderful for letting the overrepresented white population run away with the education and the money. Divide and conquer for the win!

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#478

Post by remote_phone » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

jachee wrote: post #188

remote_phone wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

How is giving underprivileged people a leg up "punishing" anyone? Privileged people need to start recognizing their inherent pre-rigging of the system. For those in power, equality feels like oppression.

Pre-rigging?

I’ve worked my ass off for nearly 30 years, as has my wife. We are both smart and very hard working and it paid off. My roots are middle class at best. My parents are immigrants and were extremely poor as children but they also worked hard and went from poverty to middle class.

I’m teaching my children to work hard and be good people and contribute to this world.

How pray tell am I benefiting from “pre-rigging”? I’ve made solid decisions throughout my life and sacrificed to be where I am today.

Now I’m being told that my children will be at a disadvantage for college because my wife and I worked hard our entire careers and succeeded. That’s hogwash. Absolute hogwash and I’m furious.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#479

Post by gremlinsinc » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #414

tankerdude wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "The score will be calculated using 15 factors, including the relative quality of the student’s high school and the crime rate and poverty level of the student’s neighborhood." So no, it doesn't account for you to secretly discriminate against you. What it does do, for the penalization part, is that the schools that are in affluent neighborhoods have access to much better resources than ones from Co…

Imagine you are about to undergo a major surgery. Would you rather get operated by a surgeon that graduated from the medical school with A+, or by someone with a B who got the job instead because they came from a poorer neighborhood?

Do you ask to see a surgeon's SAT scores, and their college scores before every operation?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#480

Post by fisherjeff » Fri, May 17, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

The adversity score is basically an acknowledgment of the fact that there is no equality of opportunity, and moreover that it’s just never going to happen on any reasonable timescale, in the US. This is an attempt to correct for the inequality of opportunity that continues to exist and, although almost certainly imperfect, I think it’s completely reasonable.