Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

spreadprivacy.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 496 posts

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#471

Post by bduerst »

morganvachon wrote: post #445
bduerst wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's Dragonfly was the same thing - sharing "only" Chinese user data. GPs comparison was privacy between the two companies, and one cares more about selling in China than the privacy of it's users.

You are using one instance - sharing Chinese users' data with the Chinese government - as the sole metric for judging a company's privacy policies. That's just as dishonest as the GP paraphrasing the link they cited to make it appear Apple did something they did not. I'm not defending Apple WRT their data privacy practices in China; as I said it's terrifying and hopefully not a stepping stone. I was simply calling GP…

Sharing millions of users' personal data with a surveillance state notorious for civil rights violations is not a trivial matter, especially in any discussion involving privacy reputation.

If you think there are privacy issues that are more important than that then list them.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#472

Post by TulliusCicero »

lucb1e wrote: post #468
TulliusCicero wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in Germany, I've found that OSM embeds in websites are more common for me now while browsing, and to be blunt: they're ugly. The maps themselves are just difficult to visually parse, and unpleasant to look at compared to Google Maps and Apple Maps (which look comparably attractive at a glance). I dunno if that's solvable using a third party OSM service provider or not, but to me it seems like a good enough rea…

As someone used to osm, you can show me my home town on Google maps and I won't recognize it anymore. There is so little detail on the map, it might as well be blank. Osm is fine, it's you who has only trained yourself in using Google maps.

No, OSM simply has bad UX.

Your anecdote is completely irrelevant, I'm not sure why you bothered to bring it up, since you're talking about data, while I'm talking about design.

If it was just me being too used to Google Maps, why don't I feel the same way about Apple Maps?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#473

Post by lostlogin »

Aunche wrote: post #203
johnsea wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google _is_ a privacy threat. Completely unrelated to DDG, marketing or believe. One Google with thousand tentacles...

I'm a bit uncomfortable with how much DDG's marketing is focused on trashing their competition. They deliberately obfuscate privacy issues to strengthen their narrative. Sure duckduckgo is a good company right now, but that's only because they're small. I doubt they'll stay that way when they capture a significant market share.

You’ve reminded me of Apple’s adverts at the beginning of the 2nd coming - the Mac guy and the PC guy.

When you’re deeply in the underdog position I think that style is ok, but at a certain point it becomes a bit gross.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#474

Post by setr »

davidhyde wrote: post #297
setr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s main business is hardware, and software that helps sell the hardware. Any revenue from data is likely a seperate, minor stream; and for it to become a significant one, likely requires significant changes in Apple’s operations. Like any other hardware company, they don’t need google’s kind of data collection to make money. But DDG is primarily funded by search, and the search business is funded by ads, which a…

DDG’s “product” is a privacy centric search. Once they get big why would they throw their product away and become like the competition? That simply does not make any sense because the only reason why most people use them is the privacy aspect. Good on Apple and DDG for realising that privacy has value and using that to grow their product.

Well, the obvious reason is that it may not be possible to get “big” as a search engine, without chipping away at the privacy gaurantees. Even if they get the users, can they sufficiently monetize them without turning into google?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#475

Post by abalone »

bduerst wrote: post #308
abalone wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not affect E2E encrypted data like iMessage. Apple doesn’t have those keys to give.[1] [1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide....

Your messages are stored on iCloud, right?

Yes but they are now E2E encrypted. Apple rolled out "Messages in iCloud" recently which preserves E2E encryption and excludes messages from regular (not E2E encrypted) iCloud backups.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#476

Post by abalone »

tylerl wrote: post #464
abalone wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not affect E2E encrypted data like iMessage. Apple doesn’t have those keys to give.[1] [1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide....

But since key management is out of your control or visibility, Apple can just add another key to your account on behalf of the government. They don't have to disclose the existing keys on your device. This gets them the messages going forward but not the ones from the past. So they'd have to do this for all Chinese customers ahead of time, rather than as a response to an inquiry.

Anything's possible if the vendor secretly collaborates with a government to insert vulnerabilities and lies about it. But what we're talking about here is, given the way Apple has publicly declared how the system works[1], what can a government do with full server access.

Apple states "All of the user’s registered devices display an alert message when a new device, phone number, or email address is added." So no, it's not correct to say key management is out of your visibility.

[1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide....

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#477

Post by lucb1e »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #472
lucb1e wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone used to osm, you can show me my home town on Google maps and I won't recognize it anymore. There is so little detail on the map, it might as well be blank. Osm is fine, it's you who has only trained yourself in using Google maps.

No, OSM simply has bad UX. Your anecdote is completely irrelevant, I'm not sure why you bothered to bring it up, since you're talking about data, while I'm talking about design. If it was just me being too used to Google Maps, why don't I feel the same way about Apple Maps?

> No, OSM simply has bad UX.

It's not very convincing if I just argued the opposite and you don't bother giving a single counter argument. What's more is that it makes me feel there is no point talking about it if logical arguments don't convince you for no apparent reason.

> Your anecdote is completely irrelevant, I'm not sure why you bothered to bring it up, since you're talking about data, while I'm talking about design.

I am talking about design. If you zoom in on Google maps, the data is mostly there (osm also has more data, sure, but that's not universally true on the planet (though on average, per square kilometer, osm easily beats Google, but that's a blog post I'm saving for another day)). Google just hides all the data except a few random roads and random shops or something. You literally have to zoom in until your screen covers the area of two buildings before it shows you what's in the building. Somehow I'm supposed to have an overview of a city from the sparsely populated view. OSM (though you can have any style you like, I'm going for what I see most frequently) just dumps all the data it had on your screen at almost any zoom level (below province sized zoom) and you can see details like building outlines and shop icons from quite far up.

> If it was just me being too used to Google Maps, why don't I feel the same way about Apple Maps?

Maybe Apple maps is very similar to Google maps? If that holds, I should not be able to use apple maps (just like I can't use Google maps very well), but last time I tried to open it in a browser it told me to buy an apple device first so I can't compare. I don't know the answer to your question.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#478

Post by detaro »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #416
grsmto wrote: post #8

I wish they were explaining why they moved away from Mapbox and OSM in general!

Living in Germany, I've found that OSM embeds in websites are more common for me now while browsing, and to be blunt: they're ugly. The maps themselves are just difficult to visually parse, and unpleasant to look at compared to Google Maps and Apple Maps (which look comparably attractive at a glance). I dunno if that's solvable using a third party OSM service provider or not, but to me it seems like a good enough rea…

> I dunno if that's solvable using a third party OSM service provider or not,

Approximately everyone is using a third-party OSM service, since the OSM project does not provide map tiles for general use.

I also strongly disagree on your other criticism of the most common style, but that's a matter of taste. To me, they look more like a proper city map is supposed to look, and provide more detail that's useful for me to orient myself. If I were typically doing long car drives, I might prefer Google, but I don't.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#479

Post by selestify »

acct1771 wrote: post #395
2bitencryption wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when they capture a significant market share. but they haven't built a better mousetrap, and they're up against the greatest mousetrap ever known to mankind

Eh...Google even 5 years ago was 10x more useful to me than they are now. No exaggeration. Even Search has become markedly less useful, a common story around here, to the point where even nonbubbled proxied Startpage.com searches are disappointing. Maps becomes less reliable all the time from a user perspective (in my immediate region, to cover my ass I guess). Chromecast and YouTube, in general and in conjunction, h…

As mostly a casual user of these products, can you speak to how search and maps have degraded?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#480

Post by freedomben »

rusk wrote: post #442
acct1771 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh...Google even 5 years ago was 10x more useful to me than they are now. No exaggeration. Even Search has become markedly less useful, a common story around here, to the point where even nonbubbled proxied Startpage.com searches are disappointing. Maps becomes less reliable all the time from a user perspective (in my immediate region, to cover my ass I guess). Chromecast and YouTube, in general and in conjunction, h…

I remember there was a time when googling was so intelligent it seemed like it was going to become self aware! Dunno what happened along the way but the last few years it’s like a giantfairly sophisticated grep coupled with a bunch of sponsored links.

sometimes I feel that way, but a quick trip to DDG or Bing reminds me that while Google has felt regressive, they are still the kings of showing me what I want up front.
Post reply on HN