Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#471

Post by jitix » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #103

bigiain wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any you trust them (as a company) that they'll "only track you for 5 minutes after using the app", and you trust each of their staff members will have controlled/secured/audited access to only the 5 minutes location data after a trip, and you trust them to never deploy a production bug in their tracking code, and you trust every law enforcement or business partner request for that data including gag-order-backed-NSLs…

It's worth noting that if Uber accidentally started collecting location data from every rider's phone in perpetuity while they're not on-trip, it would be a very big problem for Uber. That's an absolutely ridiculous amount of data and would easily overwhelm the service. You wouldn't have to worry about NSLs because the data centers would be a fiery mess of steel and silicon. Even if they weren't, the data is overwhel…

Efficiently storing and analyzing vast amounts of data isn't very difficult these days - esp if the data is something that they can monetize.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#472

Post by bitskits » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

employee8000 wrote: post #234

yladiz wrote: post #34

I saw this earlier and had hopes that the update would just let me choose "While Using" in the app settings, like some other apps allow you even if they request access even while not using the app, but the settings only allow for "Always" or "Never" on iPhone. However, you can use Uber without allowing GPS, so it's not all or nothing. I'm a little disturbed that they need any information after I use Uber though. They…

Uber employee here. We were told the reason to track up to 5 mins after the trip is for fraud, ex if a driver doesn't end the trip when she is supposed to. and to figure out where the pick up spots for each address are. A large building may have multiple points where people get picked up or dropped off and knowing those points would be very useful for the drivers and riders. And just as a side note, take it with a fe…

There are several counterpoints to your opinion that Uber is a bastion of values and respect. Here are a few (excluding the many incidents involving drivers):

1. Your CEO refers to the impact of his company on his sex life as "Boober". https://pando.com/2014/02/27/we-call-that-boob-er-the-four-m... 2. Uber orders and then cancels thousands of rides of its biggest competitor, Lyft. http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/uber-fake-ride-re... 3. Uber exec threatens a journalist Sarah Lacy with a smear campaign. https://pando.com/2016/05/04/npr-proves-once-again-uber-lyin... 4. God mode: Insiders tracked users personal movements and were fined 20k for misusing their access. http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/6/10726004/uber-god-mode-sett...

Your closing statement is spot on: it's not easy to believe "nothing nefarious is going on". For me, it's not even possible.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#473

Post by stephenr » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 6:04 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #464

kkoomi wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, who cares about ethics when there's billions of dollars on the table /s

I mean who wouldn't have realistically accepted literally billions of dollars to sell an app people willingly install on their phones? Ethics is all relative.

Were they profitable before? Were the controlling parties financially comfortable?

If my company is profitable (or has revenue growth and is likely to become profitable) and a scummy company wants to buy it, I'm going to say no.

Hard as it may be for some of the HN/VC crowd to believe, but there are people out there who start companies with their own money, because they believe in something. At no point does "find some fat megacorp to buy us our" enter the game plan.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#474

Post by simondw » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

markman wrote: post #470

AliAdams wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the drop-off points for large buildings could be a very reasonable justification for extending the tracking window for a few minutes on either side of the drive. I understand that this could fall into 'data necessary to provide a better service' as opposed to simply providing the service as-is, but it seems like drop-off point locations are quite fundamental.

It has to do with collusion between driver and passenger. It protects everyone involved. It prevents a passenger from getting in the vehicle and saying, "I told the app I was going to the bijou duplex but I really need a driver 3 hours to run a bunch of errands. I think we can work out a deal thats beneficial to us both..." that's just one of millions of possible scenarios. Uber can now tell if driver and passenger j…

I take it you stand behind the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument?

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#475

Post by sambe » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 6:41 PM UTC

vmateixeira wrote: post #469

sambe wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have quite a fundamentally different view on morality but thanks for providing a thoughtful response. I disagree with most of it so not sure it's worth going through each part ;) Only point I feel the need to address is the general imbalance in assumptions. In my experience, taxi drivers hide the meter, claim that hours are off-meter, claim there are special fees for certain journeys which don't exist, ref…

You're welcome! :) Thanks for replying back too. Always nice to see different points of view. Yes, agreed, I could have used better words other than cannot do anything because of regulation , of course they can and I'm sure some do. And I'm sure some Uber drivers out there do the exact same, maybe through different means. As I said before, good and bad professionals, you can find them everywhere. It's not something y…

> A startup is usually expected to start profiting after 5 years and Uber is just far from that

There's obviously no hard-and-fast rule about 5 years. Other people value companies differently from you and have greater risk appetite. It's pretty normal for people to have different views on such things (like the morality of various tax arrangements!); that's not evidence of corruption.

> A little bit of conspiracy speculation now: Hidden in tax heavens and needed to be brought to light ;)

That's not where it came from, that's where it currently is (according to you). Even so, a tax heaven is not the same as money that needs laundering.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#476

Post by orange_county » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 7:14 PM UTC

swyman wrote: post #316

orange_county wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come no one is throwing fuss about this for Google's foobar challenge? This is the same exact thing. In today's time, we give up privacy for convenience. If you use a smart phone, Facebook, windows/google anything you are already giving up privacy. Stop pretending that 5 mins location monitoring is a big deal.

Stop pretending people can't decide for themselves how much privacy they want and from whom

They can decide, they choose by not using the product.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#477

Post by dbbk » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 7:28 PM UTC

electic wrote: post #100

There is something very powerful you can do: 1. Stop using uber. Delete it. There is Lyft and Juno (in select markets). 2. Tell your friends about the dangers of using Uber. You can make a profound change by voting with your pocket book. Lastly, believe it or not, a lot of your friends look to you for tech advice. Be vocal.

"Tell your friends about the dangers of using Uber."

Please, honestly, tell me what I am in danger of. How could Uber tracking me for 5 minutes after arriving at my destination impact upon my life in any way?

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#478

Post by vmateixeira » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

sambe wrote: post #475

vmateixeira wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're welcome! :) Thanks for replying back too. Always nice to see different points of view. Yes, agreed, I could have used better words other than cannot do anything because of regulation , of course they can and I'm sure some do. And I'm sure some Uber drivers out there do the exact same, maybe through different means. As I said before, good and bad professionals, you can find them everywhere. It's not something y…

> A startup is usually expected to start profiting after 5 years and Uber is just far from that There's obviously no hard-and-fast rule about 5 years. Other people value companies differently from you and have greater risk appetite. It's pretty normal for people to have different views on such things (like the morality of various tax arrangements!); that's not evidence of corruption. > A little bit of conspiracy spec…

> There's obviously no hard-and-fast rule about 5 years. Other people value companies differently from you and have greater risk appetite. It's pretty normal for people to have different views on such things (like the morality of various tax arrangements!); that's not evidence of corruption.

Agreed. There's no hard rule on that. I just find it hard to believe someone would be up to investing a big chunk of money, for that much amount of time, without having any return. But yes, people choose on what to believe. I prefer to take it this way as I'm past Wonderland a while ago. Let's hope I'm wrong.

> That's not where it came from, that's where it currently is (according to you). Even so, a tax heaven is not the same as money that needs laundering.

I think it can be both actually. And it may need laundering in case there's no justification on where it's coming from. But again, this is all just conspiracy as Panama papers never happened.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#479

Post by zaidf » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 10:54 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #368

zaidf wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My roommate works at Uber as an engineer. He has a pretty high moral bar and I'd bet there are enough like him at Uber that doing shady things systematically would get exposed to the outside world fairly quickly. Notice I said systematically because any company at scale with thousands of employees may have lonewolves doing shady stuff. But that is different than a company culture that endorses or encourages that. I h…

The problem is not when a company is suddenly deciding to do something outright evil. The problem is when the company starts slowly pushing the boundaries in ways that can be justified if you squint right. E.g. consider this extra tracking. The feature in itself is fine, as long as the data is protected well enough and not abused. The problem is that staff not used to think about nefarious uses are likely to defend t…

I generally agree with you that not having the data would make it easier to refuse. But not having the data does come at a cost: in this case, poorer user experience.

As a side note, I was mainly talking abt Uber. Your post seems generic and your concerns apply to every large tech company. Most of these companies already have policies in place such as audit trail for data access, access control etc.

Re: Uber Now Tracks Passengers’ Locations Even After They’re Dropped Off

#480

Post by zaidf » Fri, Dec 02, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #369

zaidf wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My roommate works at Uber as an engineer. He has a pretty high moral bar and I'd bet there are enough like him at Uber that doing shady things systematically would get exposed to the outside world fairly quickly. Notice I said systematically because any company at scale with thousands of employees may have lonewolves doing shady stuff. But that is different than a company culture that endorses or encourages that. I h…

So exactly what additional safeguards had he demanded be put into place to protect this data?

You are assuming you (or I) know the safeguards they already have in place. For example, if they have an audit trail for anyone that access this data or if they have independent audits on data access, it could be sufficient. Both of these are norms at major corporations. I am not privy to the specifics of what Uber has in place beyond hearing that they have controls in place that are industry norms.