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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the people who ask those algorithm/white board questions. I've read a lot criticism on this topic, here're my reasons to stil keep asking these questions: 1) Working on algorithm problem requires very little in common between interviewer and interviewee. I'm C++/C#, I won't be able to give Ruby dev a real world task and evaluate it properly. Algo/data structure problems are universal and looks similar in a…

As a fellow engineer who also performs technical interviews, I cannot accept your first point. Solving trivial problems does not give you any useful information about how a person solves nontrivial problems. This is especially true if you are not specifying the language the candidate needs to use. What if I solved fizzbuzz in Haskell? It certainly would not look like a c# implementation, and you wouldn't be able to j…

Yeah I'm not arguing it's suboptimal, but I don't see better suggestion. What are you doing instead?

"Assessing the capabiliyt and trajectory, willing to learn and adapt" - that's the intent of the algo/data sturcture related questions. The questions are not about knowledge of specific algo, but assess way of thinking and write some code. Typically solution include recursion, nested loops, pointers/references, some not-trivial composition, etc. I'm never expecting candidate to know the specfici algorithm righ away.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the people who ask those algorithm/white board questions. I've read a lot criticism on this topic, here're my reasons to stil keep asking these questions: 1) Working on algorithm problem requires very little in common between interviewer and interviewee. I'm C++/C#, I won't be able to give Ruby dev a real world task and evaluate it properly. Algo/data structure problems are universal and looks similar in a…

1) If you're trying to hire a Ruby developer to write Ruby applications and that's not what you're screening in interviews, you're not proving anything relevant to the candidate's ability to do the real world job. Between not having anyone to interview and an algorithm interview, I get where you're coming from. But if there is any other choice, you shouldn't be giving the technical interview to someone whose practica…

Yes if you need specificly Ruby dev, you ask Ruby (though only if you need it now right away, may as well hire contractor for a few months in this case). Imho smart developer can pick up Ruby fast (or other stack fast) and that's the benefit of algorithm related question - you don't have to pass on candidate that don't have experience in your stack.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#473
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep talking about doing these "trial" periods but the people I want to hire are the type of people who have enough options that they wouldn't agree to do some two week trial period when they have four other companies offering them a full time job with no strings attached. I wish I could do paid trial periods for everyone, I just think this will filter out far more people than having a restrictive interview pr…

The problem is as the company in the article articulated, they thought they where filtering for the best but found out that they where not. The guy that they all agreed would be the best selection submitted a ball of code that was not cohesive and incomplete. The one who actually made it thru was the lowest on their list. IIRC their intent was to all three if they submitted good work. The whole intent of their experi…

From my perspective there aren't any other methods that are less arbitrary than several interview coding sessions.

Doing no coding sessions are more arbitrary because it is far easier to BS a non coding interview than it is to BS a coding interview. Doing paid trials are more arbitrary because you are excluding anyone who can't devote two weeks of their life to a trial that may not amount to anything.

So from my perspective intensive coding sessions, although far from perfect, are the best system we have, so our effort should be placed on recognizing the weaknesses they present and working to construct your interview in a way to minimize them.

For us we very proactively (and without judgment) give advice throughout the coding process - if it is clear someone is stuck on something small or easily Google-able we will simply tell them so they can move on to actually solving the problem. If they are stuck on something bigger, we will talk through the problem with them in a way that would make certain approaches apparent to someone who is a halfway decent programmer.

I am not saying that any of the above is perfect, but I think trying to construct a programming interview that tries as hard as possible to mitigate unimportant factors that could lower interview performance (such as nervousness or getting stuck on something simple and panicking) is a better approach than any other form of vetting I've ever seen.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that cultural differences can't be explained by systemic biases? Systemic bias may be the cultural difference, and in this context appears redundant.

As asked elsewhere--what systemic bias exists that targets certain women (white, black, mexican), but not women of other races (particularly Chinese, Indian and Russian)? Perhaps instead, it's because schools (government?) in Russia, India, and China have emphasized Computer Science, and produce higher number of female grads. Anecdotally, I attended a tiny engineering school in the midwest, and pretty much all the gr…

what systemic bias exists that targets certain women (white, black, mexican), but not women of other races (particularly Chinese, Indian and Russian)?

Well, from what GP said, it may be attributable to the culture itself:

"a culture difference between groups who are well represented in engineering, and groups which are not."

Which is to equate (or conflate) systemic bias and cultural difference. In other words, it sounds to me like, "it's not systemic bias, prejudice just comes from people doing the things." It's just a simple substitution, because "systemic" refers to a system, not an overarching one, so while we may not be able to ascribe these tendencies in The Technology Sector (or similar large group), systems have subsystems (a la culture vs. subculture), and it may be that those are where bias becomes encoded.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small caveat - I'd say contract-to-hire is what many places are implementing if they actually want the headcount instead of just a budget expenditure. The problem is that you end up with worse candidates because most people who are really good don't want the uncertainty and stigma of a contract position if they can get a full-time one elsewhere.

I've found the supposed certainty of perm work to be something of an illusion whereas the extra money in contracting is pretty real.

I've found the extra money to be an illusion when you consider public holidays, sick days, holidays etc.

I've found it to be a net negative when you consider time between contracts. Contracting really needs to be about double your salary to make it worth it.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fellow engineer who also performs technical interviews, I cannot accept your first point. Solving trivial problems does not give you any useful information about how a person solves nontrivial problems. This is especially true if you are not specifying the language the candidate needs to use. What if I solved fizzbuzz in Haskell? It certainly would not look like a c# implementation, and you wouldn't be able to j…

Yeah I'm not arguing it's suboptimal, but I don't see better suggestion. What are you doing instead? "Assessing the capabiliyt and trajectory, willing to learn and adapt" - that's the intent of the algo/data sturcture related questions. The questions are not about knowledge of specific algo, but assess way of thinking and write some code. Typically solution include recursion, nested loops, pointers/references, some n…

I'll address your second paragraph before returning to your first question- I think my answer will be a little more cohesive that way.

The fundamental problem with whiteboard / live coding technical interviews is that you're selecting for candidates whose strengths aren't necessarily useful on the job.

They: - have memorized answers to solved problems - work well under immediate pressure - demonstrate knowledge of basic programming techniques

They do not: - demonstrate collaboration - demonstrate researching and gathering requirements (i.e. no access to the internet) - demonstrate planning or reasoning about business requirements

In short, yes, they're solving problems, but they're not solving the same kinds of problems that you'll need them to solve on the job, nor are they solving them in the same way they'll be solving them on the job.

These interviews select based on superficial qualities, and practically ignore the qualities of top candidates (teamwork skills, interpreting technical requirements from business requirements etc.)

I had typed out a lengthy explanation of the process I'm currently using, but I realized I don't want to go too deeply into the weeds. In short, design a small challenge application for candidates to build, with the expectation that it'd take no more than a handful of hours, and let them turn it in on their own time (say, within a week). If they "pass", bring them in for a second, technical interview, which is a conversation based on what they submitted (i.e. how could they do X better, how would they add new feature Y, etc.)

The benefit of that kind of process are numerous: 1- The time commitment of candidates is the same as a long whiteboard interview (or set of them), and they don't need to commit to all of the time at once (takes less time away from their current engagements) 2- The time commitment of employees is reduced to ~2-3 hours (one to evaluate, one to interview) 3- candidates are building a small application, meaning there's not an objective answer to be found on stack overflow to memorize 4- candidates have time to ask questions and demonstrate skills they are passionate about, but might not have been specifically requested- say, testing, user experience, flexible architecture to support future features, that sort of thing 5- The second interview becomes a relaxed conversation, where a broader selection of engineers perform well, as opposed to the more biased high-pressure scenarios that aren't typical of our day-to-day

To do this well, of course, you ought to review the challenge and process each year, and have (preferably junior) employees test it to ensure that it will be respectful of candidate's time commitments and the value of the information the challenge will provide an evaluator. Given that you want to keep it limited to a few hours, you'll need to balance features that you think will be interesting with features that actually yield interesting information about the candidate for a second interview- anything that can be learned by simply asking a question doesn't actually need to be included.

Finally, to return to the original topic of this thread, you potentially eliminate certain cultural biases that are irrelevant; not only is the candidate demonstrating capabilities more reflective of the job itself, but they are doing so before ever meeting in person.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All that is evidence of is that women give up more often than men Yes, that's the point. >That doesn't provide any evidence that it's because men's value is tied to achievement. Indeed, that's what we're offering a potential explanation for. >I could just as readily argue that women give up more than men because they have stronger priors of tech not being for them Then do so. Saying "I could make a bunch of other ar…

> Then do so. Sorry, I should have been clear: I do believe that my explanation (women quit more because they have a stronger prior of tech not being for them) is much stronger and more likely than yours. At the very least, its assumptions are backed by basic evidence (that there are fewer women in tech to look up to as role models).

Except they are more likely to give up in other fields too. Even fields with lots of women in them. So no, your assumption is not backed by basic evidence.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#478
post #87

Agreed, the American system from early age to adulthood puts women and minorities on a path to laziness. As an example, they get better grades for less effort and free money to pursue education. They expect the business world to be the same way, and when they realize just how much work goes into becoming a successful software engineer, they give up and do something easier for less pay. I would to if I could! In Russi…

We don't need such baseless, inflammatory comments like this on Hacker News. The bar for civility and substantiveness is higher on controversial topics, not lower. We've detached this flagged comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12859390 .

What exactly in his post is untrue?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#479
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already happens, it's called contracting. And the results are terrible because no one gives a fuck about quality at a job the might not have in 3 months.

Small caveat - I'd say contract-to-hire is what many places are implementing if they actually want the headcount instead of just a budget expenditure. The problem is that you end up with worse candidates because most people who are really good don't want the uncertainty and stigma of a contract position if they can get a full-time one elsewhere.

In the UK, specifically in London, you'll be a lot better off contracting and as a consequence when you look for senior engineers you'll have a tough time finding someone perm as most senior people who know their worth will be contracting/consulting.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#480
post #434
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping directly to discrimination in society seems a bit hasted as an explanation for the data, since men entering the teaching profession also show the exact same data. When hitting a roadblock, men a several times more likely to quit the teaching profession than a woman hitting the same roadblock. Surely it not an issue of men knowing that they're worth something in and of themselves, competing against women in th…

"since men entering the teaching profession also show the exact same data" This is really interesting, could you provide a citation?

Yes I can. But first I would like to say that I could too just have requested citation from the parent comment and be done. Finding papers you read a month/year/years ago take times, and links goes sometimes dead, and in a online forum like this it is generally appreciated if the requester has done some initial attempts themselves to search online for sources.

Anyway, it was a polite request and I happened to save the pdf. Source: Rapport 2009:7 R, Swedish national agency of higher education, title: Man ska bli lärare!.

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