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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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471–480 of 602 posts

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#471
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

If governments and supragovernmental bodies didn't wield so much power over our lives, the outcome of elections wouldn't matter nearly as much.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#472
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

This may be a good time to question whether all votes in a democracy should be weighed equally, and how technology can make a difference to solve the problems of modern democracy.

Most modern democracies are representative democracies with aspects of direct democracy (in the form of referendums) using some sort of voting system. I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea of a representative democracy, but that most problems arise from the way the voting system is commonly implemented.

As far as I know, all modern democracies implement their primary voting using votes with equal weight. Some democracies, like the United States, have a layer of indirection (the electoral college), but still their primary votes are all weighed equally. While all people should be equal in the eyes of the law and with regard to human rights, there are good arguments that political votes should not be equal. Even with an equal total say for all citizens, it should be possible to weigh different topics that they have a say in towards areas that they are best qualified to make decisions about.

Imagine a political system where all citizens get to vote on representative experts per subject, with an implementation similar to PageRank. People who are indicated to be more qualified for a subject through both historical metrics (previous votes) and objective metrics (qualifications like a degree or work experience) get a stronger vote on representatives for that subject. The elected representatives could either advise politicians (in a binding fashion) or make political decisions directly. This system could strongly reduce a large problem of current democracies that the Brexit vote highlights: all people get an equal say about all issues, regardless of their ability to make qualified judgments about those issues.

Of course there are significant problems with such a weighed voting system, primarily how to make a system that weighs each person's vote fairly and accurately, and who gets to decide how the voting system itself works. This is where modern technology could play a role: by designing a digital voting system that is simple to understand and transparent, so that it can be audited by average citizens. In order to work well, I think this system should be strongly based on the scientific method and should therefore evaluate empirical evidence, instead of emotional sentiments. Another important aspect would be to learn from history, instead of overlooking its lessons. This means the system should be strongly based on political systems that have been shown throughout history to work best, like democracy. It also means that the system should avoid the historical pitfalls of political systems, like concentrating power to a specific group of people.

It would be great to know whether HN thinks that such a system could be designed, or that these ideas are utopian and wont work.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#473
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

I've read Rousseau (who was Swiss) and was fascinated by his assessment that representative democracies lead to parties which lead to factions which leads to self-destruction; that the only viable form of Democracy was direct plebiscite, as often as possible. CH still operates this way.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#474

The BrExit vote was caused by the same problem that enables Trump (and Sanders) to win so many votes. The British Elites, like the Republic Elites are ignoring the pain caused to the working class through trade agreements and (in the case of BrExit) immigration from poorer parts of Europe. In different ways the EU integration put an additional burden on the already struggling British working class. As a specific exam…

I'm confused. Are you saying that Trump is not part of what you're calling the "Republic Elite"? Or that he's not part of the billionaire class? That he's not highly connected? Are you saying he actually cares about the working class?

I don't understand how average Americans can buy into this idea that Trump is some kind of outsider. He rubs shoulders with all kinds of rich, powerful, and connected people, including presidents.

The idea that people are enamored with Trump because he represents their interests just doesn't add up. At the most, I can see how people might find his off-the-wall antics and constant flip-flopping somewhat entertaining, but surely that's not a good reason to put him office.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#475
post #222
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

So I was thinking today, we could weight the votes by life expectancy. The fewer years left in your life, the less your vote counts. In this case I wouldn't have to go home and explain to my children why it is that they probably won't be allowed to go and live in Europe for a bit when they hit their 20s anymore.

I do not think you'll have to explain them that they will be just as welcome as everybody else.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to imply they didn't "make a wise decision" or perhaps that your political opposition is stupid?

This is being widely reported: "The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support". > "According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit." > "Those with no education tended to vote Brexit" Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how.…

Uneducated ~> poor, Educated ~> wealthy.

Don't you think opposition to mass immigration policy supported by the pro-EU side might have something to do with lower income/education class voting leave? Something at all... maybe a little bit?

Perhaps, though you might not have noticed it, they were voting their self interest?

Is it surprising that highly educated class wouldn't feel threatened by importing more low-skilled immigrants?

I'm simply illustrating that, it's not as simple as the smart people supported remain, so that's the smarter choice. Smarter for whom?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#477
post #37

As usual, WaPo is shitposting. Why are they not banned here? Yes, people are deeply curious about the full effect of this huge proposed change, especially the half of the entire population who voted for Stay because they weren't too worried about the UK/EU boundary when they were happy enough with the status quo total package.

HN users in general lean heavily left (at least publicly).

It would be interesting to see the distribution on the Political Compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/).

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#478
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I thought it was remarkable that the course of an entire nation can be so greatly changed by a 51.9% victory in a single vote. Seems like such an important change should require a supermajority of some sort. (And, of course, the original choice to join ought to have as well.) People are fickle and easily divided. For normal elections, we hold them regularly, and that gives people a chance to correct their mistakes or…

It's also not 51% of the population - it's 51% of the turnout, which may well not be representative.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that's largely why Switzerland and the Scandinavian states get accolades from U.S. politicians (not as much division.) I have to disagree with you. I have a lot of friends in Sweden that do nothing but complain about the immigration crisis they are facing. In fact one of my Swedish friends is here in the US now looking for a job because immigration has become such an issue in Sweden. She can name many immigrants she…

I don't disagree with you in terms of -now-, I mean historically. The Syrian refugee crisis has changed demographics in Europe in a way that I don't think we've yet seen the full ramifications of.

Oh we do, it's just you're called out as racist when you point it out.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's too easy to get lost in the details. Look at the map. London wanted in. Scotland wanted in. The rest of the country is dissatisfied with their state and want out. Look at the US map and you see similar things. You can call the populace stupid and ignorant, but by doing so you're displaying your own form of ignorance. Lots of facts and figures and economic models can be used to say that everything is just…

The major fallacy at work here is that in-or-out may not be correlated with solving the problems of the dissatisfied portion. Out may well make their problems worse rather than to improve their state.

It may make their problems worse, but the status-quo has been failing to make things better for decades, so they are willing to take a risk.
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