State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions • Hacker News Board

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#471

Post by openfuture » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 4:46 AM UTC

flyinglizard wrote: post #376

openfuture wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

surveillance is not a solution to the problem it merely suppresses it. Treating symptoms is never as useful as treating the underlying cause.

We're lacking the tools to deal with this problem. All we can do is try and contain it.

The containment is driving the feedback loop thereby keeping us from improving the situation. We need to take a leap of faith in order to break it.

Like others have said the damage this is causing is mostly mental. The number of random (I mean that as in could happen to anyone not downplaying the significance of human life) deaths caused by terrorism is not so large.

However this does not mean we should tolerate people who refuse to play by the rules of society because of their personal beliefs (whatever they may be). Any countermeasures must be above board and transparently fair.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#472

Post by openfuture » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 4:50 AM UTC

ps4fanboy wrote: post #444

openfuture wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it has to :) But your right, recognizing it's a feedback loop is the first step.

And the second step?

Break the feedback loop.

Keep trusting, keep being fair to everyone.

That means not allowing people to break the rules of society due to their personal beliefs but enforcing laws above board. No "shadowbanning" (unlawful arrests) or unlawful surveillance.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#473

Post by spopejoy » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:11 AM UTC

powertower wrote: post #462

jacquesm wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not h…

> Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. There is much more to the story than fitting Muslims into the categories of: "non-terrorist" and "active-terrorist". The fact still remains that Muslim [and other immigrating] populations in Europe negatively impact every single metric of social-ills (rapes, murders, acid-burning attacks, honor-killings / enormous housing and welfare costs / emergence of no-go zon…

Let's say your singling out of Muslims as somehow worse than the rest of humanity has any basis in fact or reason: what's the conclusion? close the borders; kick out the muslims; round up those who won't leave; make the rest sign a loyalty oath?

Muslims are in the West, much to your horror, and the reasons they are here just might have something to do with France's imperial past and present. But they're here: so what's your solution fella?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#474

Post by spopejoy » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:23 AM UTC

brogrammer90 wrote: post #470

sohaeb wrote: post #342

As a muslim lurker of this amazing site I would like to express my sympathy to those who died and hope everyone will be safe. Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even w…

Please just give up religion altogether. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and step into the 21st century.

Religion is never going anywhere, despite your pleas.

And in case you forgot, secularists brought us the most violent conflicts in history, just last century. US slavery didn't need religion, nor did Apartheid. nor climate change or the atomic bomb. Pacifism is pretty much a religious concept, exclusively so until relatively recent human history.

I don't really see how fanatic rationalism has any leg to stand on, really.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#475

Post by Wingman4l7 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:35 AM UTC

muraiki wrote: post #292

jacquesm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which suggests an alternative (partial) solution: make sure that people in general have lots to lose especially those on the fringes of society.

This was actually successfully done. I'm having trouble finding the article, but basically a terrorist group (perhaps in Palestine) had trained some men specifically to be some of their most dedicated and zealous terrorists. However, the situation changed and they found that they no longer needed these zealots and had no idea what to do with them. So they held a mixer where the terrorists got to meet potential brides…

A very brief NPR commentary from 2005 was, I thought, remarkably prescient -- it draws many parallels between terrorists and gang members in the US (backgrounds of poverty, no job / life prospects, encouragement of elder males, etc).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4256591

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#476

Post by dllthomas » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 7:08 AM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #230

a3voices wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there were no Muslims, there would be almost no terror attacks. Conversely, if there were more Muslims, there would be more terror attacks.

Maybe, maybe not. In Nothern Ireland Christians have been killing each other for a while. Maybe religion is just a superficial reason.

Plenty of attacks by Hindus in Sri Lanka, too.

Religion - any particular one, or at all - is neither necessary nor sufficient for brutal violence or its prevention.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#477

Post by kobayashi » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 7:37 AM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #66

kobayashi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Softer target. This is my area of study.

Why don't you expound then if you're an expert? Certainly they're closer and easier to get to from the Middle East than other parts of the world and contain a larger Arab population making it easier to hide within and recruit from. But I would imagine French intelligence is deep within that same population and I remember members of the military on patrol in the streets of Paris.

To be clear, I wasn't professing to be an expert.

I'd hesitate to assume that French intelligence operatives have thoroughly penetrated terrorist groups and their sympathizers. My experience suggests that French authorities have for years underestimated the threat posed by such groups and are also significantly underfunded/under resourced.

The military patrol is primarily a form of security theatre, though that does depend upon the location. Some areas truly do need greater protection, such as repeatedly targeted venues, and those populations do need reassurance that they are not completely vulnerable. I also want to make clear that those forces can actually intervene in the unlikely situation that the protected venue is attacked, but it's also likely that their presence displaces the attacks to alternative sites.

Anyway, France has a significant population that is sympathetic to jihadi terrorism's goals and practices, and my understanding is that counterterrorism and terrorism response operations in France - both strategically and tactically - leave much to be desired. France/Paris is not like Munich circa 1972 (shit-show level of unpreparedness), but there's significant room for improvement.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#478

Post by kobayashi » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 7:38 AM UTC

tallerholler wrote: post #88

kobayashi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Softer target. This is my area of study.

this is what I thought too.. France is a Western country and is probably much easier to target than e.g. the U.S. or even the UK

Yup, I replied to another comment right above this somewhat detailing my thoughts on the matter, too. To me, France is certainly an easier place to carry out such a terrorist attack than the USA or the UK.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#479

Post by celticninja » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

younes0 wrote: post #323

celticninja wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of poor French Muslim men who are disaffected and marginalised. It is a target because it is where the terrorists are from.

Yeah, they have healthcare, basic income and free university, still they choose mediocrity and ignorance. Fuck them

I am in no way defending them, I agree with your sentiments entirely. But that doesn't mean what I said was untrue.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#480

Post by planck01 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 10:19 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #427

powertower wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence, crime statistics, the shows of intolerance + hatred + violence that Muslims put out towards the natives, all the logic and reason, and all the correlations about the Muslim population in Europe?

Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few. The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not h…

> Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few.

The same holds for fascists. Fascists terrorists are driven by their ideology, which in itself can be evil and wrong. That many adherents to an ideology are not violent is in itself not an indication of lack of evil. Even if there were billions of fascists, this wouldn't prove lack of evil of fascism.

The reason that people out of principle will not condemn Islam in western society is that is seen as 'another culture' and a 'minority' in the West. Both aspects are seen as a source for racism, which is bad. But therefore it seems hard to truly look at Islam as a possible source of evil. And I think it is.