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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#461

Post by digital-rubber »

cookiecaper wrote: post #213
digital-rubber wrote: post #117

Systemd and PulseAudio are getting pushed down everybody's throat, unasked for. They are both horrible to work with and suck quite a bit, both introduced way prematurely and buggy. Why did he not roll his own distro fully based on systemd to convince people it is so cool? instead of rolling out his own distro, people responsible for distro package/rolling were convinced it should be added to the default; as it was so…

>They are both horrible to work with and suck quite a bit, both introduced way prematurely and buggy. The community invites you to produce something superior. PulseAudio and systemd may have their own problems, but they're in place for a reason. I don't think they were selected due to some irrational hero worship for Poettering; they were selected because they were the most concise way to solve a real problem. As muc…

Please read the reply below to snowwrestler, check the PDF. As i think it also applies here.

Also please don't put to much faith in the people that roll the packages. It's a kind of dangerous assumption, see history for examples.

Also i fail to see where i have not been civil, I've tried so very hard. Not a single F-word in there ;-)

I agree it wouldn't have to be complicated at all, if simply a new distro was created fully based and compliant with the ideas of systemd, until its mature enough for others to adopt. Instead of overwriting the existing with something that certainly is not proven to be better or best for the job. And many are entering a road where they are not even sure systemd is going to end taking over things, unifying things, making all distros the same.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#462

Post by lmm »

EmanueleAina wrote: post #456
lmm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If systemd was willing to conform to a standardized interface, published on freedesktop.org or similar, so that it was possible to swap out compatible implementations, I would agree with you. But instead the systemd folks deliberately make incompatible changes that they know will break non-systemd systems (e.g. Gentoo). At that point a fork does no good; it's "dos ain't done 'till lotus won't run" all over again.

The good old "design by commitee", catering for a still-unexisting alternative init system implementing the same interfaces? No, thanks. systemd's interfaces are publicly available and with good enough documentation. Most of them are even declared stable, only the internal ones are obviously free to change. In fact many project are now attempting to reimplement systemd's interfaces as this is how FLOSS work.

You don't have to design by committee, but you do have to publish your interface and commit to keeping it stable. Yes, this slows down development, but it's essential for interoperability.

Of course the alternative doesn't exist yet when the interfaces change every week.

And systemd's definition of "internal" is rather dubious; to most of us, udev or journald should be separate components that can be swapped out.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#463

Post by digital-rubber »

vidarh wrote: post #193
digital-rubber wrote: post #117

Systemd and PulseAudio are getting pushed down everybody's throat, unasked for. They are both horrible to work with and suck quite a bit, both introduced way prematurely and buggy. Why did he not roll his own distro fully based on systemd to convince people it is so cool? instead of rolling out his own distro, people responsible for distro package/rolling were convinced it should be added to the default; as it was so…

I have big misgivings about Poettering, and this post has done nothing to improve my opinion of him. But a lot of the systemd criticism is poorly argued. > Sys V Init was simple and transparent, and it worked fine for anybody i knew working with linux Sys V init only works "fine" for you if your needs are simplistic. If you have not dealt with dozens of badly written init scripts that turns restarting a typical serve…

With all respects, all the issues you address, should not be addressed with a new process manager which glues and tapes things together as some hot fix.

The processes need to be debugged and fixed. I'm strongly of the opinion that daemons for example, need to start once and not crash at all. I don't want a process manager to decide to restart it, and if that was acceptable, a safe script will do fine. (and hehe don't get me started about process states within systemd, its that process manager that often think processes are still running, while the old init would check for the process, detect its not running, cleanup the pid and start)

I also strongly believe in separation of duties, so 'big systems with many processes' do not exist in my opinion. They all have a specialised function, and only that function.

Also please have a look at the pdf i replied below to snow wrestler about systemd and its future.

Kind Regards DR

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#464

Post by digital-rubber »

imanaccount247 wrote: post #217
digital-rubber wrote: post #117

Systemd and PulseAudio are getting pushed down everybody's throat, unasked for. They are both horrible to work with and suck quite a bit, both introduced way prematurely and buggy. Why did he not roll his own distro fully based on systemd to convince people it is so cool? instead of rolling out his own distro, people responsible for distro package/rolling were convinced it should be added to the default; as it was so…

>Why did he not roll his own distro fully based on systemd to convince people it is so cool? He does, it is called fedora. The problem is that red hat has so much influence that people will follow their lead. In this case, they pretty much have to as some software simply won't work if they don't follow.

hehe :) i guess indeed fedora is his playground, and probably why i stopped using it. (which was before i even knew the name of the pulseaudio author)

But still think its should have been something new, Fedora-CoreOS until its matured and then decide to overwrite all existing distros with systemd if the need and demand is there, instead of forcing it through the whole community while there is a large part that doesn't want it and it's not even finished or really brings something new to the table.

And yes its the people that follow the 'leading parties' blindly, and they think its cool to roll out something new, in my opinion mainly because it is new and exciting.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#465

Post by chris_wot »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #397
EdwardDiego wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't handle a message like that, then perhaps it's just as well. Such conduct is not tolerated in workplaces, where people are paid to contribute, why do you consider it acceptable in an environment where people contribute for free?

Well, when the quality problems are severe enough to get someone fired from a workplace...

Then they get fired, normally after being counselled. They don't get told they are so worthless they should have been aborted.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#466

Post by EmanueleAina »

peterwwillis wrote: post #424
wffurr wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked your original pre-edit comment, since it portrayed your attitude even better: "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaha Was about to argue the merit of this post, then noticed the author. Almost got me, Poettering ;-) Just another social/political manipulation to get his way at the expense of others. I would feel bad for the guy if he wasn't such a whiny prick the rest of the time." I especiall…

Yeah, I figured explaining my opinion was more valid than the verbal diahhrea I initially concocted. But since I never took a position on whether his treatment was fair, I think your attempt to paint me as an advocate of violence is a lot less classy. To be clear, it's not that I dislike him personally, it's that he's an open source troll and this is just more trolling. I'm sure he's a lovely person when he isn't shi…

Lennart is producing lots of software that many people find useful to solve real problems.

If you don't have these problems you're free to not use them.

If your distro maintainer choose to integrate with software produced by Lennart it's because it either solves real problems for them or are simply too dumb to be trusted.

In the first case it would be appropriate to trust the decision of qualified people, but if you fall in the latter care you're still free to change distro given the assumed incompetence of your maintainers.

I still don't see how this makes Lennart a troll.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#467

Post by minikites »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #439
minikites wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to your overall premise: > Somewhere along the line, we gave this up and became a culture where feelings matter more than results. I think the solution here is for the tech world to regrow the thick skin it once had. I disagree that the solution is to regrow a thick skin and if you ignore the differing experiences that tech women have, you're overlooking a gigantic problem in the current tech industr…

It is unclear to me why a few people receiving a disproportionate amount of hate invalidates my "thick skin" proposal. I don't think 100x more hate would materially affect my experience beyond wasting a few more minutes of my time deleting it. Could you explain why you think otherwise?

Because I think both of your premises are incorrect. It's not "a few people", it's 50% of the population. It's not "100x" more hate, it a completely different kind of hate, one that is very threatening and personal, attacking people's core identity.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#468

Post by yummyfajitas »

minikites wrote: post #467
yummyfajitas wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unclear to me why a few people receiving a disproportionate amount of hate invalidates my "thick skin" proposal. I don't think 100x more hate would materially affect my experience beyond wasting a few more minutes of my time deleting it. Could you explain why you think otherwise?

Because I think both of your premises are incorrect. It's not "a few people", it's 50% of the population. It's not "100x" more hate, it a completely different kind of hate, one that is very threatening and personal, attacking people's core identity.

It would be helpful if you explained the relevance of the distinctions you are making rather than simply their existence. Not to mention the relevance of this entire derailing of the underlying conversation.

The delete button works just as well for "I hate your core identity" as "I'm looking for a javascript spetznatz".

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#469

Post by peterwwillis »

EmanueleAina wrote: post #466
peterwwillis wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I figured explaining my opinion was more valid than the verbal diahhrea I initially concocted. But since I never took a position on whether his treatment was fair, I think your attempt to paint me as an advocate of violence is a lot less classy. To be clear, it's not that I dislike him personally, it's that he's an open source troll and this is just more trolling. I'm sure he's a lovely person when he isn't shi…

Lennart is producing lots of software that many people find useful to solve real problems. If you don't have these problems you're free to not use them. If your distro maintainer choose to integrate with software produced by Lennart it's because it either solves real problems for them or are simply too dumb to be trusted. In the first case it would be appropriate to trust the decision of qualified people, but if you…

> If you don't have these problems you're free to not use them.

Uh, no. Major distributions have adopted his software into the core of their product and it is virtually impossible to substitute it. These distros happen to be the only approved vendors for most major private and public sector commercial software. We're not free to not use it.

> you're still free to change distro given the assumed incompetence of your maintainers

See above.

> I still don't see how this makes Lennart a troll.

Besides the fact that most of the Linux kernel dev team thinks he and his cronies are asshats? Besides the way he's designed his software to be the polar opposite model of the operating system he's building it for? Besides the fact that he's insulting all of the people he purports to write software for and with, ignoring the fact that almost no one else has been treated this way?

Besides all of that, it's a troll because he's basically just said 'fuck you' to everyone who develops open source software and now his fanboys and detractors are all arguing over it. It's a very effective troll indeed.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#470

Post by snarfy »

freehunter wrote: post #252
snarfy wrote: post #23

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_by_perkele Linus's approach is a cultural thing.

A lot of discriminatory or hateful actions can be written off as cultural. Racism is cultural in the Southern US. Doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it's acceptable, only giving background. "I'm being blunt." "I'm just being honest". etc. These are not excuses for being an asshole. The same information can be shared without being an asshole about it. Being an asshole towards others publicly on the mailing list is just another form of bullying. If he wanted to be blunt or whatever, he could do it in private messages. There is no need to publicly shame people.
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