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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

blog.florianherrengt.com

461–470 of 688 posts

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#461
post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

> I am still a firm believer in garbage in -> garbage out, AI is only as good as the abstractions and contracts you put in place for it.

Absolutely on point. I just completed the port of a industrial application written in Python using a sophisticated console-based UI to C# and Avalonia UI. This is my second major coding project using Codex.

The one salient element of the experience has been that, as I keep saying to anyone who will listen, AI still does not understand anything it is doing. It presents an amazing simulation of it, but, no, it does not.

Here's a simple example: The original application had a clean communications protocol implementation. A single file with a class that implemented every single command you could have the industrial controller issue to the hardware. Codex was explicitly told to replicate that in C#. It did, at first, but then it started to duplicate command processor code in the individual functional blocks throughout the application. Which means that, when a bug surfaced, you had to fix it in five different places.

Another example: The application has a highly customized table view. Once again, it was told to make that a component to reuse throughout the application. It did, at first, and then weird bugs started to surface that made it clear that it had reimplemented the table control in different areas of the application.

If you don't know what you are doing you will probably not pick-up or even care about some of these things. It is easier to whack-a-mole bugs with AI than to worry about code structure, efficiency, maintainability, future-proofing, scalability, etc.

I purposely decided not to look or touch a single line of code during this project to see what's possible and where the issues might be. I learned a lot and continue to learn. I think the next step is some sort of an agentic approach, maybe using OpenClaw (or whatever, I don't really know right now) to create a team with coding, supervisory and testing agents.

While the project got done significantly faster than it would have without AI (four weeks instead of probably 4 to 6 months), the process was just as intense as coding, just operating at a different level, micromanaging architecture and implementation.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#462
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. Increasingly I am of the opinion that software engineering aught to be a licensed profession, similar to civil engineers, medical professionals, or lawyers. A board of peers to hold you accountable and a licence that can be revoked at any time. Additionally, legislation could be written to require such licensed indivi…

The problem with making programming a regulated profession is who gets to define the regulations. You are probably imagining that it would be expert developers with a track record of success. I would bet on it being the people who write lots of blog posts and books about programming and give lots of conference keynotes - whether or not those people have any evidence base to support their advocated policies or any per…

> You are probably imagining that it would be expert developers with a track record of success.

I'll admit I am unsure how such individuals would be chosen. I imagine it would be prudent to learn what processes are used by other licensed professions when choosing such individuals.

> who write lots of blog posts and books about programming and give lots of conference keynotes

I do not think people who write blog posts and give conference keynotes should be awarded with roles that regulate the profession because they write blog posts and give keynotes. I would hope that any regulation is evidence driven.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

The whole "learn to code" and software bootcamp craze always baffled me. Like what other profession markets themselves as "Hey, our job is so easy that any schmuck off the street can enter the career with 4 months of training." Practically every other job I can think of at a similar salary level has entrance requirements (e.g. grad school admissions exams), extensive and expensive training, a lengthy apprenticeship p…

> Like what other profession markets themselves as "Hey, our job is so easy that any schmuck off the street can enter the career with 4 months of training."

For one, the industry never did professionalize to begin with, certainly not in the way accountants, lawyers etc did. We never had any real body that could certify proficiency, which is what contributed to companies having to resort to leetcode and other such styles of interviewing.

Additionally, it wasn't software engineers doing this, but people looking to cash in on students looking to get a 6-figure job. They were business people, not software engineers.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly how I feel about my job now. I'm the new manager. But honestly claude is better than any team of developers I've ever had working under me. It does exactly what I ask it to, in 10 minutes instead of 3 weeks. And apparently we can't afford a development team now anyway... I'm not working at massive scale. I've not built any public-facing projects from scratch. But I have done years-worth of cleanup and…

Exactly this for me too. I don't know how to feel about this overall honestly, I'm able to do so much more but now I barely get to write any code. It's weird.

> I don't know how to feel about this overall honestly

I'm at the "this takes the scut work off my plate but damn if it doesn't also take the fun stuff off my plate too, and might put me out of job before I'm ready to retire in 8 years" point.

Though I've done the corporate America thing long enough to appreciate that 8 years isn't really all that long, maybe there's hope.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#465
post #197
post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

But sooner or later for AI to reach its true potential we need to have HOTL ie Human Out of the Loop. Meta prompting or using AI to develop the prompt by coaxing it to ask relevant questions , creating specs and going through multiple loops with LLMs - things like this can be a good start towards the final goal. Final means the over abundance of goods and services like the men of the millenium are suggesting us mere…

Pretty big assumptions that we will get a UBI that everyone can live comfortably on, that there will be optional jobs for anyone who wants to work, and even given the first two, that there won't be massive wealth and power accumulation at the top, even more than today.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#466

From the title I thought this post would be about something completely different. The post is about splitting the world into "good" and "bad" engineers with an emphasis on the bad engineer. Ok but what does that have to do with the middle class? The post leaves the best part out. What I thought the post would be about is the dissolution of the White Collar Kitchen Brigade The kitchen is run by the Chef but it needs t…

I think you and the author are arguing the same point. The middle class offer developer that’s unskilled is going to be on the chopping block. Let’s say that there’s a robot that can now be a sous chef. If you have a good sous chef, you might keep that person. If the sous chef poorly executed her role, the new robot sous chef is probably looking pretty good. Fundamentally this is an hollowing out of the middle class. Arguably these people should not have had a job, but they provided just enough benefit that they weren’t fired.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#467
post #147
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just another 6 months bro, only another funding bro, I promise, all devs will be replaced bro I have stupid question here. Why they sell tokens instead of AI generated full application and AI fixes to your code without you needing a single dev?

Because selling shovels is more profitable than digging holes themselves.

Really? Where do you live because in my country the opposite is true

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#468
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. Increasingly I am of the opinion that software engineering aught to be a licensed profession, similar to civil engineers, medical professionals, or lawyers. A board of peers to hold you accountable and a licence that can be revoked at any time. Additionally, legislation could be written to require such licensed indivi…

> software engineering aught to be a licensed profession Only in certain industries, where outcomes can hurt people in any way. There's opportunity to engineer software in just about every industry, but I don't think a widget vendor that wants to connect to a WMS should be compelled to hire licensed anything. Of course, licensed engineers should cost more too.

Some pieces of software are classified as a "medical device" and require certain processes to be in place.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#469
post #43

AI generated code is the new "lines of code" metric used by middle management.

Oooooh we just started doing this at my company. There is no target set yet, but management feels it's between 50% and 100%. But people will be evaluated on this!

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

The whole "learn to code" and software bootcamp craze always baffled me. Like what other profession markets themselves as "Hey, our job is so easy that any schmuck off the street can enter the career with 4 months of training." Practically every other job I can think of at a similar salary level has entrance requirements (e.g. grad school admissions exams), extensive and expensive training, a lengthy apprenticeship p…

Good code apparent doesn't matter. Most software doesn't have real repurcussions for being bad. You just get a shittier oncall which doesn't seem to matter to some people
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