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“Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

blog.senko.net

461–470 of 589 posts

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what you're saying is true we are moving into an era where rockstar product managers are going to be more in demand than programmers since they can do all of what you mentioned above. And typically (though not always) product managers have better people skills than programmers and consequently they might be more effective at the "gathering requirements" and "working together" bits you mentioned above. Even much of…

Well, it's true. In a world where code is commoditized, a PM who knows exactly what the customers' needs are will be much more successful than an engineer who does not. Not sure what is controversial about that.

Why not have the customer talk to an llm and iterate on the plan? Many customers will appreciate the 30m back and forth replacing the multiple hour meetings.

People are subtracting a lot of hard parts from their thinking, and think it's simpler than it is. What happens when the test suite isn't testing the real thing? The ci/cd doesn't even start? There is a bug requiring a hot fix ASAP? The code is growing into a nasty meatball and spaghetti dish, and the llms just turn shift it around. What about when the agent starts thinking in circles and neefs guidance to start working?

I'm not a ludite: I use llms every day, but I try not to be a meat proxy. Some one off scripts are vibe coded, but applications need real maintainable code.

My prediction for winners and losers: some companies will lay off a ton of programmers and replace with AI, with short term success but long term big problems. Other companies will use llms to boost productivity, but keep their engineers responsible for the health of the products. Short term gains won't be as impressive, but productivity will be higher and the company will be competitive in the long term.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#462
post #72

I believe there are some programming jobs in which the code is absolutely the easier part. Not all of us work in signal processing, integrated systems or have to push upstream to Linux kernel because the company we work for really needs a memory allocation optimization for its data centers. Navigating customer requirements and building something that satisfies both market's needs and company strategy can be an incred…

About halfway through my career, I spent about 10 years working in the enterprise SaaS/PaaS space. 6 as a developer, ~4 as a product manager. Both sides of that coin are difficult. Trying to create a product strategy that meets the needs of hundreds of large companies is a special kind of hell. And on the dev side, even "simple" things are not simple when they have to be implemented at scale, software updates cannot…

Do you have any advice for someone who wants to take this path? I'm betting on determinism, simulations, tests and CEL.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#463
post #266
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been programming for 30 years and "Code was never the hard part" does not offend me. It's something i've been saying for a long time. You can teach anyone the mechanics of coding well in like 6 months. Programming is the hard part! I want to make this distinction because to me programming is about solving problems and coding is a way to express the solution. Designing algorithms, architectures, etc can be done w…

Sometime in the past 10-20 years there was a prestige shift where people started using the term "developer" for what you're describing as "programmer", relegating "programmer" to what you're describing as "coder", and "coder" to "hobbyist programmer/developer" (while weirdly "coding" remained colloquially the thing programmers do). Advice to job seekers I remember in the 2010s was to not call yourself a programmer be…

The same thing happened in the 80's when people stopped using "Computerization" and labeled it "Information Technology", which is a misnomer, in my opinion, because computerization doesn't just involve information technology, it also involves human factors - which were stripped from the field in the labelling, because of the collective assumption that people who computerized were incapable of humanization - i.e. "nerds are not people-people, which is why they can only deal with computers."

But it's a fallacy. Computers mean nothing without humans. Software is 100% a social activity. Break this rule and your software will suck and eventually fail.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you mean by enterprise project? If you just mean a large company, I would say they do exist - though it may take some looking for them. You can find them in companies that have to deal with "real" things (hardware, factories, production lines), or where there is an interest in taking advantage of emerging technology (advertising, e-commerce) I would call my current project relatively systems-level too…

> ...it's better to be a goat than a cow. That's the first time I've heard that idiom. What does it mean?

I made it up on the hoof (pun intended)

Cows are the most common animal on the farm, and overall they produce the most value. But they are very replaceable. When times are bad, you slaughter them.

Cows are like your rank-and-file application developers: you scale them up and down with the times.

Goats are more niche. You don't have many of them on your farm. But they solve important problems (eating weeds), and they look after themselves, so you seldom slaughter goats.

Goats are like specialists in your company. People who know how the "real" things operate. You don't need many of them. But they are involved in enough critical things, niches that can't be scaled down, that you seldom lay them off

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#465
post #445
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people who write code are the latter and not the former. The industry has diluted the term "engineer" so much that they maybe don't even realise that traditional engineering projects are about more than just implementation work.

In the countries where Engineering is a professional title and not something people decide to call themselves, we still know the difference.

In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#467
post #465
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the countries where Engineering is a professional title and not something people decide to call themselves, we still know the difference.

In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?

In many, I am at least aware of Portugal, Germany and Canada.

https://www.lexpoint.pt/Default.aspx?PageId=128&ContentId=60...

https://www.vdi.de/news/detail/wer-darf-sich-ingenieur-oder-...

https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-profess...

You can call yourself engineer if you feel like it, however in case it comes to some court case due to liabilities and such, there might be some issues coming up with having Eng in that contract signature.

Many here would probably say that they have never did the exam, and nonetheless use the title, which is as mentioned, not an issue as long as you don't land in court and the validation of title doesn't come up.

Also in most European countries, being an Engineer even if not professionally qualified, automatically means that the person in question took a university degree in engineering, on an university whose engineering degree was certified as such by the government organisation responsible for all engineering professions.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#468
>>“Code was never the hard part”

It really depends on how that phrase has been used, as coding to me and to others was never hardest part - dealing with other BS however still is. I don't feel insulted at this expression at all, but it sure sounds like something that "modern audience" members would say, where it does not matter what you say, but how insulting it is perceived by others - by their definition and withing their limited scope of perception.

>>If coding is easy, was Carmack just at the right place at the right time?

Yes, coding here is not so much important as mathematics and algorithms and showman figure of John Carmack makes him more than just a coder that goes to recluse to do coding. The successful engine for DOOM and licensing it to other (lazy?) developers that did not want to make their own engine(or were unable to make their own) is comparable to success of coder known as Bil Gates(notoriously known by directed hate at him). Apart from those games, that were successful with DOOM engines, there were many that were not so successful and even failures, but those are not(and should not) attributed to success of DOOM engine. Not to mention, that there were also successful games that did not use DOOM engines, but it seems that it is hard to imagine such thing when new game developers only know and are using Unity nowadays...

I enjoyed Sid Meyers and Jon Van Caneghem games more and I was spending more hours with Civilization and Heroes of Might and Magic games than Wolfenstein and DOOM. Also, as someone that was marveling at demoscene that was thriving at that time, it sounds like insult to think that gaming industry and coding as art was thriving only because of few people - it was a culture, where giants like IBM were molding it for decades.

>>>Those decades spent fighting memory bugs in C or C++, with the scars to prove it, are worthless in the age of Rust, Go, Python and JavaScript.

LOL. When dealing with myths surviving from past you need to develop whole new mythology.

If you fought memory bug once you don't need decades to deal with them repeatedly... also Rust clearly is not ready to be used to make games with "safe code". I would assume that you can make application made with Rust to slug your OS resources by intention as well - the fact that these things were done before unintentionally does not make much difference how language can be used. Python is not the best example as well, as wrong indentation can make your program behave in ways you did not expect and finding and correct that indentation can be a challenge if that indentation is not perceived as error by compiler - not a problem if you are only using Python as interpretative language with one line codes.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#469
post #465
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the countries where Engineering is a professional title and not something people decide to call themselves, we still know the difference.

In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?

In Italy: https://www.cni.it/en/engineers-in-italy

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#470
post #469
post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?

In Italy: https://www.cni.it/en/engineers-in-italy

I see there that you also created a workaround for the Bologna changes like we did, the 5 versus 3 years.
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