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Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

reuters.com

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Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#461

Post by lelanthran »

justanotherjoe wrote: post #452
lelanthran wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now I need to either disable everything or figure out how to turn that off for her. Why? I tell me 6yo "That's for adults only, children are not allowed to use it" and not have to worry. Sure, he'll push boundaries here and there, but with some things he knows "No means no" and doesn't push those boundaries. I have literally tested this: left a cookie on the table (that he wants) and told him "You can eat that…

You tested it, i doubt you authored it. A paternal twin can have one with good impulse control and another who's more instinctual. Even in the same family and upbringing.

> A paternal twin can have one with good impulse control and another who's more instinctual. Even in the same family and upbringing.

Sure it happens, but it's unlikely.

It's why kids from certain cultures achieve better academic success on average than kids from other cultures, on average: the environment matters a lot.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#462

Post by boomlinde »

stackghost wrote: post #195
cryo32 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they can conduct a nuanced debate then? Mine couldn’t until they were much older. And I have more so perhaps that’s more statistically valid?

>So they can conduct a nuanced debate then? Oh, can I move the goalposts too?

The original claim was that "at eight they have limited comprehension of the world around them and limited language skills" and that they can't conduct debate is a relevant example of that.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#463

Post by lostlogin »

hgomersall wrote: post #417
lostlogin wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went through a Steiner school from pre-school to end of high school. It’s highly opinionated and very controlling initially . When you paint, you start with one colour. Then another day you get the next (there were only primary colours, because of course). You eat at your desk, then you’re allowed to play. This was dropped after a year or so. You don’t learn to read until you’re 7, etc etc. However, by the end of h…

Yeah, I we considered a Steiner school because I think that extensive play is a super critical part of a good education. The problem is you also need to be able to be part of the mainstream system at some point, and it felt like it didn't necessarily quite meet that goal.

> The problem is you also need to be able to be part of the mainstream system at some point

There is a requirement to meet certain state mandated standards and the one I went to also took state funding, leading to dilution of Steiner influence/an improved curriculum. It depended which side you were on.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#464

Post by lostlogin »

creesch wrote: post #434
hgomersall wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I we considered a Steiner school because I think that extensive play is a super critical part of a good education. The problem is you also need to be able to be part of the mainstream system at some point, and it felt like it didn't necessarily quite meet that goal.

Also worth considering is that it is part of a broader ideology of Anthroposophy which sometimes aproaches semi cult status in how people identify with it . A lot of the principles of Steiner schools are actually pretty cool, but sending your kid there, depending on the school they will also be dealing with the more esoteric bits of all of this that have very little to do with didactic or pedagogic sound principles.…

This is probably true of every school that follows a philosophy or belief system.

It needs addressing. The school was white wealthy hippies when I was there. It’s vastly more representative now.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#465

Post by bebe83939 »

bborud wrote: post #206
throw93934i wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all Norwegians learn at least But this is not about Norwegian kids. And many imigrants have no use for Norwegian (obscure) language. I have polish and ukrainian friends in Norway.

So now you are arguing what? That the AI tools, that so thoroughly failed to educate you on education, should be used to teach immigrants in their mother tongue? And keep in mind, if you move to a country you kind of have to accept that they won’t be able to offer you education in every possible language. In fact, learning the language is often a prerequisite for permanent residency. I am not going to ask you how you…

we clearly disagree on many things.

People from EU already have residency in Norway, and some are not planning to stay there permanently.

One reason to avoid native language (outside of waste of time), is to avoid Barnevernet. It is much harder to take child away from parents, into permament Norwegian foster care, if it does not even speak local language.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#466

Post by guyomes »

simonw wrote: post #56

> Pupils from first through seventh grade, aged 6 to 13, should as a general rule not be using AI, while those in lower secondary school, aged 14 to 16, can cautiously adopt tools under teachers' supervision, the government said. Sounds right to me. Kids under 13 need to learn to read, write and comprehend text. Generative AI is not going to help them with those skills. They can play with AI at home, and after 13 the…

> They can play with AI at home

Actually, in Europe, Gemini is officially not available for kids even at home [1]. In some countries like Germany, the restriction applies until 16 [2]. I find unsettling that even for supervised account, parents are forbidden to let their kids learn how to use Gemini, even between 14 and 16 yo.

Note that this restriction does not seem to appear from other AI company. So from outside, it looks like unsolicited interference from Google in the parental education choices.

[1]: https://support.google.com/families/answer/16109150?hl=en#av...

[2]: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1350409?sjid=7871...

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#467

Post by [deleted] »

intended wrote: post #383
simonw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI hasn't had a chance to demonstrate if it helps or hurts education yet. That's the big problem with education in general. If you introduce a new factor to children's education you can't realistically measure the effect it has had for about five years , because you need to wait for a cohort of kids to go through that system and then see how they did. This means that if you introduce something with clear negative eff…

No? https://www.media.mit.edu/publications/your-brain-on-chatgpt... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-01947-1 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... This also links back up to the Ironies of Automation, which came out decades ago. The reports from teachers for the past few years have been pretty stark, with kids completely obviating homework. Homework is exercise. If you bring a fork…

[deleted]

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#468

Post by joe_mamba »

intended wrote: post #383
simonw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI hasn't had a chance to demonstrate if it helps or hurts education yet. That's the big problem with education in general. If you introduce a new factor to children's education you can't realistically measure the effect it has had for about five years , because you need to wait for a cohort of kids to go through that system and then see how they did. This means that if you introduce something with clear negative eff…

No? https://www.media.mit.edu/publications/your-brain-on-chatgpt... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-01947-1 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... This also links back up to the Ironies of Automation, which came out decades ago. The reports from teachers for the past few years have been pretty stark, with kids completely obviating homework. Homework is exercise. If you bring a fork…

>Homework is exercise. If you bring a forklift to gym you end up moving weights but not building muscles.

In countries like Finland kids don't get any homework. Though their society and school system optimizes more for child happiness, not winning international math Olympiads where you need to cram to get ahead.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#469

Post by galkk »

lelanthran wrote: post #440
galkk wrote: post #435

Completely understandable. My 6yo kiddo recently realized that smart speaker (Google home) can not only play her favorite songs, but answer her homework questions. And it was something not that trivial, like “which animal from the list changes color of its fur when seasons change: tiger, arctic fox, something else”. And now I need to either disable everything or figure out how to turn that off for her.

> And now I need to either disable everything or figure out how to turn that off for her. Why? I tell me 6yo "That's for adults only, children are not allowed to use it" and not have to worry. Sure, he'll push boundaries here and there, but with some things he knows "No means no" and doesn't push those boundaries. I have literally tested this: left a cookie on the table (that he wants) and told him "You can eat that…

It’s okay to pat yourself on the back sometimes, but you have 0 idea about me/my kid, if she’s neurotypical or neurodivergent.

So I suggest to keep unasked parental advices or expectations how other kids should behave to yourself.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#470

Post by cryo32 »

boomlinde wrote: post #462
stackghost wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So they can conduct a nuanced debate then? Oh, can I move the goalposts too?

The original claim was that "at eight they have limited comprehension of the world around them and limited language skills" and that they can't conduct debate is a relevant example of that.

By sheer irony, it would also suggest that the original poster had limited language comprehension skills and wasn't capable of evaluating an eight year old.
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