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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#461

Post by Moldoteck »

functionmouse wrote: post #375
daneel_w wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Rosetta was always meant to be just a temporary compatibility bridge. Surely you too would consider it kind of crazy if they were today, still, pouring time into maintaining Rosetta 1 for people wanting to run PPC software on macOS/x86. The first Arm build of macOS is now 6 years old, and when Rosetta 2 is ultimately removed from macOS in late 2027 it will have been available to us for close to 8 years. That's a…

The work is done. Why not just leave it in? Or FOSS it so the community maintains it, like WINE?

Maintenance ain't free and letting one of the core elements of OS to be developed by community could lead to undesirable outcomes (ranging from battery/perf impact to introduction of some new bugs or esoteric workarounds). Consistency in codebase and software is important, especially for bigger companies.

Far too many companies aren't willing to embrace newer paradigms/toolchains/software on the principle - if it works don't touch it or inventing some wild workarounds. I think in the end it's for good

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#462

Post by unsungNovelty »

I don't like MacOS. Everytime I talk about setting up a custom PC, people say - buy Mac Mini. No. I don't want MacOS. It's soooo slow workflow wise. I was literally behind my manager for 2 whole years to get him to move me from Macbook Air 11 inch to a linux laptop. He was ready to give me Macbook Pro 2016. But not a Linux laptop, in an org which had them. And I went over his head to get a Linux laptop there. The slow workflow MacOS had. My goodness.

But people always argued that I used a subpar Mac device as slow as Macbook Air 11. So you didn't have the full experience. blah blah blah. Guess what? I use a M3 Macbook Air with 24GB now. It is still is as bad as it was back then. And after the glass update, I has become abysmal. So no. I'll just get another Linux computer. Not a Mac. The only time I will voluntarily choose MacOs is if I had to choose between Windows and Mac. Then I will choose Mac 100% of the time. Or if I had to ever develop for Apple ecosystem as well.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#463

Post by al_borland »

functionmouse wrote: post #375
daneel_w wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Rosetta was always meant to be just a temporary compatibility bridge. Surely you too would consider it kind of crazy if they were today, still, pouring time into maintaining Rosetta 1 for people wanting to run PPC software on macOS/x86. The first Arm build of macOS is now 6 years old, and when Rosetta 2 is ultimately removed from macOS in late 2027 it will have been available to us for close to 8 years. That's a…

The work is done. Why not just leave it in? Or FOSS it so the community maintains it, like WINE?

Microsoft maintains backward compatibility seemingly forever and it means a lot more complexity, more surface area for vulnerabilities, and critically that they are unable to ever get developers to buy-in to any new ideas. Developers know their current app will keep working, so why bother with the re-write? Then due to the lack of adoption, they kill the project and try something else. I believe this to be one of the core reasons why Apple is able to successfully launch in areas that Microsoft has routinely failed.

It’s been 6 years. If anything hasn’t been updated by now, it’s either been abandoned or the developer needs a hard deadline. There are various programs out there where I question if it’s been abandoned. Periodic exercises like this help make it clear.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#464

Post by al_borland »

no-name-here wrote: post #382
rangestransform wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing developers off of Rosetta 2 is a pro-consumer move because it gives the ultimate incentive for developers to modernize. I don’t want to use Lightroom (replace with whatever app is part of your workflow) through x86 emulation, I want Apple to bitch slap Adobe into porting it to native. Microsoft will be forced to expend resources to support x86 emulation for all of eternity. Apple throwing their weight around…

1. A ton of software won't get updated even with customers losing access to stuff they bought in the Apple app store. I've been through this multiple times with Apple where existing software is just suddenly unavailable to those who’d installed it. 2. Consumers losing the choice to use apps they bought or downloaded is not pro-consumer (if they want to continue getting OS security patches etc). As you said, it's a co…

If you’re worried about OS security patches, shouldn’t using software that hasn’t been updated in 6 years be of similar concern?

I’m not arguing that software needs to be updated every 2 weeks, as is the trend now. However, 6 years, when there have been major architectural changes and UI changes. At some point the software should be deemed abandoned and it’s time to find something new.

Even a simple update to support the M-series chips means the dev is still around and can release updates, even if there have been no other feature updates in 6 years as its finished software. The occasional sign of life on finished projects is helpful.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#466

Post by Danox »

sgjohnson wrote: post #434
benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

> Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. This is the 3rd time this has happened in roughly 2 decades by the way. ppc/ppc64 -> x86_64 x86_64 -> x64 only x64 -> arm64 I much prefer Apple just forcing the developers to update their apps. Perhaps it’s just me though.

Continue to support obsolete hardware just cause doesn’t make any sense. Apple had to move on just like they had to move away from Motorola, IBM and Intel. Apple also had to move away from AMD and Nvidia, Broadcom, and probably Qualcomm, and with the current memory crisis, Apple may have to take memory in house too. Many of the moves were done not because they wanted to, but because they had to.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#467

Post by Moldoteck »

Aurornis wrote: post #18

I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed. I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models. However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499…

Framework has it's value for ppl that are afraid dropping their laptops/ breaking the screen. Personally i still prefer macs, but I have friends that do value such "features". For the same reason they are willing to buy the Fairphone despite inferior specs/higher per spec price

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#468

Post by happymellon »

wwalexander wrote: post #460
thefossguy69 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i... You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

I don't see moving a window to another desktop which, for a multi-desktop environment, seems far more basic than setting to the left or right.

I've always had to use 3rd party tools to achieve this.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#469

Post by al_borland »

simondotau wrote: post #412
tencentshill wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience? Should they have supported PPC emulation forever? x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices. Apple is usually a bit early to drop technologies, but still acknowledges and fixes real mistakes (USB-C-only laptops and the associated keyboards) when they impact customer experience.

> USB-C-only laptops I think it's hilarious that Apple managed to get criticised for being both too early AND too late with USB-C.

To be fair, they were criticized a lot for dropping the 30-pin connector and going to Lightning too. At the time they said they designed Lightning to last 10 years (about how long 30-pin lasted), because they knew how disruptive a port change is with all the accessories people have. It lasted from 2012-2023, 11 years. So they made good on their promise.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#470

Post by Nitrolo »

wwalexander wrote: post #460
thefossguy69 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i... You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

I've recently been given a MacBook for work for the first time and this was driving me crazy, thank you!

Now I just need to figure out how to make Word stick to these commands and not decide that right half of the screen means the right 3/4 of the screen.

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