Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#461

Post by habinero » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:10 PM UTC

wagwang wrote: post #347

j_w wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the "sucky" schools are statistically where poor people go to school, which statistically is where minorities go to school. School choice is bad because the only people who benefit from school choice are already wealthy - they can afford to transport their child to the school of their choice.

The people who benefit are not the wealthy, who can afford to simply buy a house in the school district of their desire, but simply middle class parents who care about their kids.

Poor people care about their kids, too. They're just struggling to keep a roof over their heads and food on their plates instead of worrying about what college their kids are going to get into.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#462

Post by dnautics » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:11 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #430

dnautics wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Charter schools deliver results the same way that private schools deliver results: selection bias. Wasn't there a failing neighborhood school in LA that got turned into four charter schools that basically rescued the district, without removing any students?

I don't know, was there? Do you have a link?

Alain Leroy Locke high school. So I don't know if there was any academic improvement, but they was certainly a safety improvement.

Ed (looked it up): there was academic improvement, LAUSD claims it's not enough, LAUSD is comparing against neighboring districts, which were not as distressed at the outset, "18 years to improve should have been enough". Safety is considerably improved. Alumni and district residents seem to want to keep the school. Locke high school is currently going through a charter renewal challenge.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#463

Post by delecti » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:12 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #72

StateflowsLabs wrote: post #2

"The surge in math deficiencies after dropping the SAT highlights a systemic issue: grade inflation. Without a standardized baseline like the SAT/ACT, a 4.0 GPA from a high school with relaxed standards looks identical to a 4.0 from a highly rigorous one. Paradoxically, removing test requirements harms underprivileged students the most. Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. In contrast, bu…

I can't read the article - do they explain why they think this is a "paradox"?

Expectation: removing standardized tests will give more opportunity to students who historically tend to do worse on those tests, like poor kids.

Reality: removing standardized tests means that universities have to put more weight on the rest of the college application, such as extracurricular activities which are often expensive and thus disadvantage poor kids.

Calling it a "paradox" is maybe a little hyperbolic, but basically it did the opposite of what they expected.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#464

Post by toast0 » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:12 PM UTC

doubled112 wrote: post #322

toast0 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is everyone knows you learn to type when you get on IRC, but you can't put elementary school kids on IRC.

Why not? I was in elementary school on IRC. ASL ;-) ?

I'm sure you turned out fine. But the school district can't put a bunch of kids on IRC, it'll look bad.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#465

Post by nradov » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:12 PM UTC

WarmWash wrote: post #159

Why do we have such an easy time accepting peoples intrinsic athletic ability and such a difficult time accepting people's intrinsic mental ability? To me this is a 1:1 comparison, but people lose their mind when I make the comparison. College isn't for everyone just like amateur league sport isn't for everyone. I feel like I am going to a minor league baseball game and seeing a shortstop on the field with the motor…

There's a huge difference in how much intrinsic athletic ability matters depending on the sport. It's a bigger factor in a sport like baseball or tennis where eyesight and coordination are so critical; you can only train those things to a limited extent. But for sports that rely more on strength and endurance than technical skill pretty much anyone has the potential to reach a high level of performance (not Olympic level but like NCAA division 3 level) regardless of intrinsic ability. It's mostly a matter of being disciplined and grinding out the workouts every day for years.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#466

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:13 PM UTC

john_strinlai wrote: post #317

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, but your comment also in no way implies that you are taking into account the bigger picture here, where the criticism is directed at the admissions process, and wherein universities are honestly at fault. If university-level classes have pre-requisites that should be taught in high school, then universities should screen for that and disqualify students who do not have the required competency. They should not…

> I know then why did you accuse me of not intending to educate my students? > Meanwhile, educators also shouldn't accept that "pointing [students] in the right direction to get caught up" is enough, because objectively speaking, it's not---that is not how a student develops an understanding of maths and sciences. you havent bothered to ask what "pointing in the right direction" entails, and are making (wrong) assump…

You’re making this about yourself

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#467

Post by dartharva » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:14 PM UTC

WarmWash wrote: post #159

Why do we have such an easy time accepting peoples intrinsic athletic ability and such a difficult time accepting people's intrinsic mental ability? To me this is a 1:1 comparison, but people lose their mind when I make the comparison. College isn't for everyone just like amateur league sport isn't for everyone. I feel like I am going to a minor league baseball game and seeing a shortstop on the field with the motor…

Please.. undergrad college in any stream is a very achievable baseline that literally anyone not afflicted with a pathological mental condition can pass, provided they are interested themselves and are subjected to classes from instructors who are serious about their jobs. All you need is some basic level of discipline and direction. College is not some kind of academic olympics.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#468

Post by john_strinlai » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:15 PM UTC

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #466

john_strinlai wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know then why did you accuse me of not intending to educate my students? > Meanwhile, educators also shouldn't accept that "pointing [students] in the right direction to get caught up" is enough, because objectively speaking, it's not---that is not how a student develops an understanding of maths and sciences. you havent bothered to ask what "pointing in the right direction" entails, and are making (wrong) assump…

You’re making this about yourself

yes, obviously, because you called me out specifically. and you are using what i said, without necessary context, and extrapolating it generally to "educators". i'm not cool with either.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#469

Post by graemep » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:15 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #355

recursivedoubts wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give the money to the parents in the form of income-adjusted vouchers to spend on education as they see fit.

That creates a market for lemons. How does a parent (especially one that is illiterate) compare between educational opportunities for their kids? The status quo says that the schools do not measure outcomes (and when they do, they do not publish it, or publish it on a long delay), so any objective data parents could use is not available.

> How does a parent (especially one that is illiterate) compare between educational opportunities for their kids?

If you have a significant number of illiterate parents they could hardly do worse than your current system!

They can judge by reputation, talking to parents with kids currently in a school, etc. IMO that is better than publishing metrics because then schools focus on the metrics: this is a huge problem in the UK where metrics are published.

In my experience parents (regardless of educational level) make better decisions than the system does, and there is research to back it up (outcomes for home educated kids for whom parents make all the decisions).

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#470

Post by upboundspiral » Thu, May 28, 2026, 5:15 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

I know many teachers and funding already works the way you describe: the better a school's students do, the more funding it gets (schools also get funding for the number of days the students show up).

What this does is make it so anyone with a pulse gets a passing grade.

What teachers actually want and need is the ability to fail people. At one district the math department wanted to fail a bunch of kids until the principal intervened, saying they should pass more people, and make exams worth less of the grade.

Teachers need the support from the state and the district to be allowed to fail students early in their academic journey so that students can get the help they need immediately and prevent them from reaching high school and still not knowing their times tables.