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Magnifica Humanitas

vatican.va

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Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#461

Post by goosejuice »

lukan wrote: post #437
vintagedave wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear I have committed the sin (I mean that word, here) of commenting before reading the entire article. Often it is the comments that set the tone of interpretation and communication more than the article itself, because people read the comments, not the article. To somewhat mitigate that, here are items that are striking me as I read more. (I hope you'll forgive that this still directs the comment in the direction…

"It is, therefore, not enough to state simply that men and women have equal dignity and rights; it is necessary that this be reflected in concrete decisions, such as in laws, access to employment, education, social and political responsibilities, and the way society listens to and values women’s contributions. As long as this gap persists, we cannot say that society truly and fully recognizes that women have the same…

In this case spiritual and political are one in the same.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#462

Post by oersted »

komali2 wrote: post #281
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truly interesting question, and the crux of the matter, also hasn't changed much since 1903: How?

There's been plenty of examples of workers seizing the means of production and establishing sustained non-capitalist organization (State or otherwise). We have any number of strategies to choose from: The PRC, Soviet Union, Syndicalized Spain (my favorite, seems the least likely to lead to police state), Vietnam, Cuba. The question thus isn't "how," but more specifically a couple other questions: "How do we prevent c…

The hard part seems to be for the workers to keep the means of production after they are taken. In all those examples, you end up with a leadership that owns everything nominally "on behalf of the people". If anything, democracy gets the closest to that ideal, a compromise with all it's flaws.

Well, it's rather patronising of of me to call that "the hard part", after all the terrible struggles workers have gone through to earn a seat at the table, but you know what I mean.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#463

Post by saghm »

mmplxx wrote: post #386
jdw64 wrote: post #248

>“technology is never neutral, because it takes on the characteristics of those who devise, finance, regulate, and use it,” If critical decisions affecting human life—such as hiring, lending, crime prediction, and welfare—are processed in an opaque black box, people will lose their fundamental right to explain their context or appeal against the machine's algorithmic verdicts

Substitute technology for religion and he's probably one of the least authorized persons to question this.

I don't have to agree with everything someone says to agree with one of the points someone is making. This point happens to be a good one, independent on my views of anything else that he (or his organization) might say

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#464

Post by whodidntante »

xandrius wrote: post #165
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #127

This quote is from 1903. Times haven't changed that much: > Not a handful of rich people, but all the working people must enjoy the fruits of their common labour. Machines and other improvements must serve to ease the work of all and not to enable a few to grow rich at the expense of millions and tens of millions of people.

Yep but the anti-socialism/communism world did wonders to make that feel like kryptonite whenever those words get brought up, even though anyone who is doesn't see themselves as "rich" in that sentence who fully agree. That's why even factory workers are anti-communism or anti-union which are literally the best way to fight back the imbalance of power.

The "imbalance of power" can only be "fought" by eliminating the concentrations of power. This is not a capitalist vs communist thing,it is, at least, a human thing, as humans need hierarchy, and power ends up being held by the few. The Romans, the Ottomans, the Persians, the Qing, and many, many other empires all have had the same "issues". I am sure this "problem" goes back to antiquity.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#465

Post by saghm »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #340
perfmode wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is old made new. Franz Kafka passed away June 2nd 1924.

Is it wrong? Individuals were absolutely getting dehumanized in Kafka's time, but also since then are becoming ever increasingly more so, so it makes sense to speak of it continuing to happen and get worse. It is not binary.

It's also not a bad thing to keep pointing out something that is wrong if it keeps happening. The alternative is just silently deciding to accept it as normal and fine, which is clearly worse!

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#466

Post by bromuro »

lukan wrote: post #437
vintagedave wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear I have committed the sin (I mean that word, here) of commenting before reading the entire article. Often it is the comments that set the tone of interpretation and communication more than the article itself, because people read the comments, not the article. To somewhat mitigate that, here are items that are striking me as I read more. (I hope you'll forgive that this still directs the comment in the direction…

"It is, therefore, not enough to state simply that men and women have equal dignity and rights; it is necessary that this be reflected in concrete decisions, such as in laws, access to employment, education, social and political responsibilities, and the way society listens to and values women’s contributions. As long as this gap persists, we cannot say that society truly and fully recognizes that women have the same…

Your argument is a bit stretched. Women had and have a principal role in catholicism, the fact that cannot be priest is not that important or seen as discrimination.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#467

Post by stavros »

thayne wrote: post #458
stavros wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the lack of jobs should be a strong social safety net, but Americans don't want this because socialism, so what can you do? You can't really halt progress, and taxing the rich (or corporations) is very unpalatable there, so everyone is kind of stuck.

You need more than just a strong social safety net. If people are losing well-paying jobs, even if the safety net covers their basic needs, their quality of living goes down, and they are potentially also losing something that gives them purpose and something to do with their time, not to mention losing a sense of independence. Let's suppose that we did get UBI, and AI replaced most jobs. Then we'll basically just ha…

Switzerland pays you your previous salary for two years if you're laid off. "Covers your basic needs" isn't a ceiling for a social safety net.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#468

Post by switchbak »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #340
perfmode wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is old made new. Franz Kafka passed away June 2nd 1924.

Is it wrong? Individuals were absolutely getting dehumanized in Kafka's time, but also since then are becoming ever increasingly more so, so it makes sense to speak of it continuing to happen and get worse. It is not binary.

"Individuals were absolutely getting dehumanized ... since then are becoming ever increasingly more so" - do you mind backing this up? I and everyone I know has it a whole lot easier than a couple generations prior.

I don't know a single person working the fields, doing dangerous work in a factory, working a coal mine, etc. Of course, I am fortunate enough to be in this position.

Power is continuing to squeeze people as much as it can, and life is very unaffordable and getting worse for most, but I think we still have it a whole lot better than a century ago (by and large).

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#469

Post by hnlmorg »

epolanski wrote: post #435
hnlmorg wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catholicism is as much about hierarchy and pomposity as it is about faith. Plus personal and social experiences are often catalysts for changing one’s beliefs. It happens so often there’s a term for it: “crisis of faith”

But it should be a crisis of trust in the organization, not it's credos.

I don’t really think you can lecture people on what they should or shouldn’t believe. That’s how wars start. That and control of oil.

The whole point of faith is that it’s a subjective opinion that cannot be proven.

Arguing that someone’s faith isn’t logical is about as sensible as arguing which shade of blue looks more wet.

Re: Magnifica Humanitas

#470

Post by thayne »

stavros wrote: post #467
thayne wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need more than just a strong social safety net. If people are losing well-paying jobs, even if the safety net covers their basic needs, their quality of living goes down, and they are potentially also losing something that gives them purpose and something to do with their time, not to mention losing a sense of independence. Let's suppose that we did get UBI, and AI replaced most jobs. Then we'll basically just ha…

Switzerland pays you your previous salary for two years if you're laid off. "Covers your basic needs" isn't a ceiling for a social safety net.

And what happens after those two years if there just aren't enough jobs to be had?
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