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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#461

Post by Wobbles42 »

The purpose of a system is what it does.

Undermining data protection and privacy is clearly the point. The fact that it's happening everywhere at the same time makes it look to me like a bunch of leaders got together and decided that online anonymity is a problem.

It's not like kids having access to adult content is a new problem after all. Every western government just decided that we should do something about it at roughly the same time after decades of indifference.

The "age verification" story is casus belli. This is about ID, political dissent, and fears of people being exposed to the wrong brand of propaganda.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#462

Post by Pxtl »

All of my kids devices are identified, at device level, as children's devices. They could've trivially exposed this as metadata to allow sites to enforce "no under 18" use. However, I'd disagree that my bigger concern for my kids isn't that they'd see a boob or a penis, but that they'd see an influencer who'd try to radicalize them to some extremist cause, and that's usually not considered 18+ content.

And either way, none of that requires de-anonymizing literally everyone on the internet. I'd be more than happy to see governments provide cryptographically secure digital ID and so that sites can self-select to start requiring this digital ID to make moderation easier.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#463

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

adolph wrote: post #328
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

> holding parents accountable for what their children consume There is a local dive bar down the street. I haven't expressly told my kids that entering and ordering an alcoholic drink is forbidden. In fact, that place has a hamburger stand out front on weekends and I wouldn't discourage my kids from trying it out if they were out exploring. I still expect that the bartender would check their ID before pulling a pint…

also there's a huge argument to be made that surveilling your kids is really really bad for their development

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#464

Post by Quarrelsome »

philipallstar wrote: post #443
Quarrelsome wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is more around it being illegal so as to not be forced into playing "the bad guy". It's hard to prevent a level of entitlement and resentment if those less well parented have full access. If nobody is allowed then there's no parental friction at all. Its unfortunate that the application of this rule is being performed at the software level via ad-hoc age verification as opposed to the device leve…

But it's not playing the bad guy. It's playing the good guy.

in the abstract but in the social of the home you have to be the bad guy. While good parents manage that, the bar is too high for society in general.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#465

Post by ragall »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

The vast majority of parents aren't tech-savvy enough to be able to operate IT parental controls.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#466

Post by Quarrelsome »

JohnMakin wrote: post #454
Quarrelsome wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is more around it being illegal so as to not be forced into playing "the bad guy". It's hard to prevent a level of entitlement and resentment if those less well parented have full access. If nobody is allowed then there's no parental friction at all. Its unfortunate that the application of this rule is being performed at the software level via ad-hoc age verification as opposed to the device leve…

I'm saying hold parent's accountable for their children's online behavior and for their protection online, not companies (who want to profit off the kids, perverse incentive) or governments (who can barely be trusted to do this even if this was the only goal). For example if your kid starts making revenge CP of their classmates, and the parent could have reasonably mitigated or known about it, I think the parent abso…

> I'm saying hold parent's accountable for their children's online behavior and for their protection online

You're saying the status quo and I think its fair to state you wouldn't intentionally design the status quo. Unless we have some wizard wheeze where we can easily arrest and detain or otherwise effectively punish parents without further reducing the quality of life for their children.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#467

Post by Galanwe »

halls-940 wrote: post #455
Galanwe wrote: post #449

Well there are technical solutions for this: blind signatures. I could generate my own key, have the government blind sign it upon verifying my identity, and then use my key to prove I'm an adult citizen, without anyone (even the signing government) know which key is mine. Any veryfying entity just need to know the government public key and check it signed my key.

I was thinking the same thing. Why don't we just get a key from the government?

> Why don't we just get a key from the government?

Because one could argue that the government could keep track of the keys they give away.

That is where blind signing is interesting. The government can sign _your_ key without knowing it.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#468

Post by almosthere »

I think this should work like OpenID connect but with just a true/false.

PS = pr0n site

AV = age verification site (conforming to age-1 spec and certified)

  PS: Send user to AV with generated token
  AV: Browser arrives with POST data from PS with generated token
  AV: AV specific flow to verify age - may capturing images/token in a database. May be instant or take days

  AV: Confirms age, provides link back to original PS
  PS: Requests AV/status response payload:

  {
    "age": 21,
    "status": "final"
  }
No other details need to be disclosed to PS.

I don't know if this is already the flow, but I suspect AV is sending name, address, etc... All stuff that isn't needed if AV is a certified vendor.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#469

Post by snerbles »

Wobbles42 wrote: post #461

The purpose of a system is what it does. Undermining data protection and privacy is clearly the point. The fact that it's happening everywhere at the same time makes it look to me like a bunch of leaders got together and decided that online anonymity is a problem. It's not like kids having access to adult content is a new problem after all. Every western government just decided that we should do something about it at…

Exactly. So many comments here about technical solutions are missing the underlying government/authority problem, or are actively a part of it.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#470

Post by pessimizer »

dang wrote: post #249
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

What are some links to HN comments that you (or anyone else) feel is "coordinated astroturfing"? The site guidelines ask users to send those to us at hn@ycombinator.com rather than post about it in the threads, but we always look into such cases when people send them. It almost invariably turns out to simply be that the community is divided on a topic, and this is usually demonstrable even from the public data (such…

> What are some links to HN comments that you (or anyone else) feel is "coordinated astroturfing"?

I don't think that there is any definitive way to prevent or detect this anymore. The number of personnel dedicated to online manipulation has grown too much, and the technology has advanced too far.

These are now discussions that states and oligarchs have interests in, not Juicero or smart skillet astroturfing. And this remains a forum that people use to indicate elite support for their arguments.

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