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AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

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Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#461

Post by versteegen »

awesome_dude wrote: post #383
rsanek wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"without losing face"? What culture are you referring to? The Western companies I have worked at do not discourage such questions -- in fact, it's often the sign of someone very senior when they ask a seemingly 'dumb' question that others have taken for granted.

My Entire career "Why the f*ck are you asking, you should know this" or "Why the f*ck can you not look that up" edit: There's an entire chapter of the internet with "LMGTFY" responses because people ask questions. or "Isn't it f*cking obvious" or "Do I have to f*cking spell it out for you" There's a strong chance that I am autistic, which means, yes, I need people to be (more) explicit. AI has done a hell of a good j…

A completely flipped perspective:

> "Why the f*ck are you asking, you should know this"

Because you mentioned NZ: my father, a toolmaker, said there was a huge difference between Europe and NZ. In Germany/Netherlands, he'd be working under a more senior toolmaker. When he took a job in NZ and asked the boss something, as would have been the proper thing to do in Europe, he got a response just like that: because he was the expert, and his NZ boss was just a manager.

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#462

Post by phist_mcgee »

lokar wrote: post #371
bdangubic wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is a larger issue ? lacking domain knowledge? or lacking deeper understanding of years of shit in the codebase that seniors may have better understanding? where I work, there is no issue that it "too large" for a junior to take on, it is the only way that "junior" becomes "non-junior" - by doing, not by delegating to so-called seniors (I am one of them)

Just curious, are you mostly FE? I could see this there (but there is still a lot of browser esoteria, etc) Doing backend and large distributed systems it (seems to me), much deeper. Types of consistency and their tradeoffs in practice, details like implementing and correctly using lamport clocks, good API design, endless details about reworking, on and on. And then for both, a learned sense of what approaches to sys…

>Just curious, are you mostly FE

Gatekeeping?

Why couldn't a backend team have all tasks be junior compatible, if uncoupled from deadlines and time constraints?

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#463

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

Aurornis wrote: post #183
beAbU wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the struggling with docs and learning how and where to find the answers part of the learning process? I would argue a machine that short circuits the process of getting stuck in obtuse documentation is actually harmful long term...

I recall similar arguments being made against search engines: People who had built up a library of internal knowledge about where and how to find things didn't like that it had become so easy to search for resources. The arguments were similar, too: What will you do if Google goes down? What if Google gives the wrong answer? What if you become dependent on Google? Yet I'm willing to bet that everyone reading this use…

I have been online since 1993 on Usenet. That was definitely not a widespread belief. We thought DejaNews was a godsend.

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#464

Post by awesome_dude »

mmh0000 wrote: post #458
awesome_dude wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it - ask questions, but not ones that you already know where the answer is. edit: well, except when you search the documentation and get (literally) 70+ results because you don't know the exact phrasing used in the self hosted wiki... Or, when it's a question that is domain specific (meaning that the SME is supposed to know it, which you only know if you are... an SME...) etc

Provide context when asking. : “hey bob, I looked here and here and here and didn’t find the correct information. Can you show me where to look or tell me the answer so I can document it” Because most people don’t bother doing the tiniest amount of their own research before asking dumb questions it becomes a huge headache to answer the same thing a million times. However, if you can show that you did put in the effor…

So far I have two examples (in this thread) of people making (potentially toxic) judgements about the fact that someone asked a question

Can you show why you assumed that what you are asking for wasn't provided?

Can you also explain why your response is to make rather harsh judgements rather than work out what was going on in the first place?

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#465

Post by SecretDreams »

alexgotoi wrote: post #192

The thing people miss in these “replace juniors with AI” takes is that juniors were never mainly about cheap hands on keyboards. They’re the only people in the org who are still allowed to ask “dumb” questions without losing face, and those questions are often the only signal you get that your abstractions are nonsense. What AI does is remove a bunch of the humiliating, boring parts of being junior: hunting for the r…

I'll also add the obvious answer in that real companies constantly have seniors leaving/retiring. Juniors are meant to be trained up to be the future seniors of the company. You should consistently feed and grow this pipeline unless you think you won't exist in the future or AI will replace all jobs, period.

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#466

Post by kennyloginz »

vkou wrote: post #392
awesome_dude wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My entire career - New Zealand, and Australia - asking questions is weaponised (as I stated above) Graduate, Junior, Senior, Team Lead, - my title hasn't mattered to the response

You're working in toxic workplaces . Most of them aren't like this. (I believe you when you say that most of yours are like this.)

Unionize

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#468

Post by throwaway894345 »

alexgotoi wrote: post #192

The thing people miss in these “replace juniors with AI” takes is that juniors were never mainly about cheap hands on keyboards. They’re the only people in the org who are still allowed to ask “dumb” questions without losing face, and those questions are often the only signal you get that your abstractions are nonsense. What AI does is remove a bunch of the humiliating, boring parts of being junior: hunting for the r…

I think the main benefit of junior devs is that it’s the only pipeline for getting senior devs. The other benefit over AI is that most of software engineering is not writing the code, but doing all of the other stuff like working out what to build, flagging concerns, operating the software once it is running, etc.

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#469

Post by protocolture »

alexgotoi wrote: post #192

The thing people miss in these “replace juniors with AI” takes is that juniors were never mainly about cheap hands on keyboards. They’re the only people in the org who are still allowed to ask “dumb” questions without losing face, and those questions are often the only signal you get that your abstractions are nonsense. What AI does is remove a bunch of the humiliating, boring parts of being junior: hunting for the r…

>They’re the only people in the org who are still allowed to ask “dumb” questions without losing face

This is the only role of executives, sales people, account managers. They usually do it with complete and utter confidence too. Vibe-questioning and vibe-instructing other people without a care in the world.

Re: AWS CEO says replacing junior devs with AI is 'one of the dumbest ideas'

#470

Post by never_inline »

alexgotoi wrote: post #192

The thing people miss in these “replace juniors with AI” takes is that juniors were never mainly about cheap hands on keyboards. They’re the only people in the org who are still allowed to ask “dumb” questions without losing face, and those questions are often the only signal you get that your abstractions are nonsense. What AI does is remove a bunch of the humiliating, boring parts of being junior: hunting for the r…

If that was the case I would be chilling during my junior years.

Juniors are usually given either grunt or low priority work while seniors get more "important" work.

OTOH, it takes a lot to get your questions on RIGHT EARS when you're a junior, so wouldn't agree with your characterization at all.

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