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4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

alecmuffett.com

461–470 of 817 posts

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can’t possibly be breaking UK law because the service isn’t even being provided in the UK. UK users are accessing US servers to get service.

> UK users are accessing US servers to get service. That's called offering the service to UK users. I don't host my blog in 165 times in each country in order to let people to access my content/services.

> > > UK users are accessing US servers to get service.

> That's called offering the service to UK users.

It is not – not under US law, not under common law (in the UK/Commonwealth).

Under US law and in common law systems generally, a website being merely accessible from country XYZ does not, by itself, constitute «offering a service» into XYZ. Courts look for purposeful targeting of, or meaningful interaction with, users in that place. Mere accessibility is not enough. See [0] for a precedent.

1. The US approach in a nutshell.

a) Personal-jurisdiction basics: a court needs «minimum contacts» that the website operator created with the forum. The US Supreme Court has previously stressed that the plaintiff’s location or where effects are felt is not enough if the defendant did not create forum contacts.

b) The «Zippo sliding scale» test distinguishes passive sites from interactive, commercial ones. Passive presence online generally does not create jurisdiction. See [1] for a landmark opinion.

c) The Fourth Circuit’s ALS Scan test says a state may exercise jurisdiction when the defendant directs electronic activity into the state, with a manifest intent to do business or interact there, and that activity gives rise to the claim. Simply putting content on the web is not enough. Again, see [0] for an established precedent.

2. The common law/European «targeting» idea

a) UK and EU courts apply a similar targeting notion in various contexts. The CJEU in Pammer/Alpenhof held that a site must be directed to the consumer’s member state; mere accessibility is insufficient. UK cases on online IP use also examine whether activity is targeted at UK users. See [2] for an established precedent on the other side of the pond.

b) Data-protection law is also explicit: the GDPR applies to non-EU operators when they offer goods or services to people in the EU or monitor them. Recital 23 and the EDPB’s guidelines list indicators such as using a local language or currency, shipping to the territory, local contact details, and targeted ads. Accessibility alone does not trigger the rule.

To recap, if a US-hosted site simply serves content that UK users can reach, that alone does not mean the operator is «offering a service» to the UK or its citizens under US law or general common-law principles. Liability or regulatory reach typically turns on targeting and purposeful availment, not mere availability. Circle back to [0] for details again.

[0] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/293...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zippo_Manufacturing_Co._v._Zip....

[2] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#462

I think the premise of this is simple, and a lot of people seem to not be understanding this... The UK can make a law and apply it however they see fit. 4Chan is providing a service to UK people (a website you can access) and is not implementing the law. Ultimately the UK cannot enforce this law until money destined to/from 4Chan passes through the UK or people associated with the site visit UK territories. In practi…

Putting the burden on site operators to geoblock UK users is not only placing an incredible burden on individual operators, it doesn't even work. It is not the responsibility of foreign companies to enforce or even acknowledged the UK's laws. If the UK has a problem, they have tools to solve it on their own soil. If they want to enforce their laws they need to pay for it. The UK is trying to bully and scare foreign w…

Relevant here is that 4Chan appears to explicitly target the UK users for commercial purposes, and potentially (via subcontract to Cloudflare) serves to UK customers from equipment located on UK soil.

Whether one agrees with the policy aims of the OSA or not, there are some complex jurisdictional and enforceability issues at play here. Unfortunately it’s not as simple as you make out.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#463
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why wouldn't it have the power to hold that entity accountable? If I transmit insults of dear leader Kim Jung Un on amateur radio, then those radio waves will reach DPRK. I likely would be breaking DPRK law. Why wouldn't they have the power? Same reason my decree that guns are now banned in the US is not even refuted, but ignored. 4chan has no obligation or even reason to even respond to the UK except as entertainm…

It's as if DPRK demanded to have a US citizen extradited in order to be executed for blasphemy Not really. It's more like DPRK messaging a private US citizen directly, repeatedly and incessantly, that they will be executed for blasphemy. Ofcom is not using proper diplomatic channels here. Why should parisians care? Why would France cooperate with enforcing such laws? Everyone here seems convinced that Parisians shoul…

The question is will France stand for arresting people for smoking in Paris if they travel to the UK. The gonernment of France can allow that or they can retaliate in various ways. Just a diplomatic message is likely enough to make the UK back down - but who knows maybe the two won't agree and go to war.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply offering a service to UK citizens isn't enough to provide jurisdiction. If I run a lemonade stand, and a UK citizen walks up a pays a dollar for a glass of lemonade, then that doesn't give the UK jurisdiction over the lemonade stand. That's what's happening here - a webserver is operating entirely out of the UK, with no nexus. UK citizens send requests to it - just like all other countries citizens do, so eith…

> If I run a lemonade stand, and a UK citizen walks up a pays a dollar for a glass of lemonade, then that doesn't give the UK jurisdiction over the lemonade stand. You are allowed to sell lemonade to British tourists. But if you're shipping lemonade to the UK, you are subject to UK lemonade regulations. That doesn't mean that the UK has jurisdiction over your business and can shut it down or anything like that, but i…

> The UK is not threatening to seize anyone's site.

Yet? :)

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand if you police what people say and think you risk moderation being weponized into censorship. On the other hand if you don't you risk big corp weaponizing free speech into misinformation. It's not a simple problem to solve, and it's not like having one problem is better than the other, because both devolve outside the boundaries of democracy.

It's a very simple problem to solve. Free speech is absolute. Anyone who claims otherwise is a temporarily embarrassed hall monitor.

This is no solution. We as a society can define free speech as being absolute, and this is fine, I'm onboard. We still need to handle the consequences from this decision.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#466
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You will stopped from doing that by American law. The difference between this and that is that Ofcom believes it can regulate conduct that never touches British soil. You're showing yourself to believe that America can regulate conduct that never touches American soil.

America won't go after you. America will go after Americans who access your site and American ISPs will block your site. That's not America regulating your behavior. You're still free to do whatever you want. If you enter America, there may also be consequences, but you don't need to enter America.

America may well go after you and we have a large military to do it with. most often a simple diplomatic message will shut you down - most countries have their own child porn laws, and the exceptions (if any) are going to face problems as this is something the us takes seriously.

You picked a bad example - there are many US crimes that you could get away with if done elsewhere within the local laws, it generally isn't seen as worth bothering with when done elsewhere if the other country doesn't care.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#467

From the attorney's post: > The infinite character of that power was most famously summed up by English lawyer Sir Ivor Jennings, who once said that “if Parliament enacts that smoking in the streets of Paris is an offence, then it is an offence”. This line is taught to every first-year English law student. Initially this seems like disrespect for another country's sovereignty. But really the crucial thing is: > We ex…

Not quite. Ofcom in their reply make their point clear: "The [Online Safety] Act explicitly grants Ofcom the legal authority to regulate online safety for individuals in the United Kingdom [...]" They are stating that companies operating in the UK and providing services to UK individuals, are required to conform with UK regulations in relation to those services, under UK law. As an American business, you can choose t…

> Google does certain things in relation to Tiananmen Square searches in China

What does Google do with Tiananmen square searches in China? I can't access google here at all.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#468
post #375
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> USAID manipulate narratives on all popular multimedia and social media sites. I wouldn't be surprised to read that on 4chan, but on HN ... we need some credible citations. :)

Some of the text and PDF's by congress discuss some of the findings but there are other sites that reported on it in the last couple years. [1] Some documents try to justify it [2]. There are countless more documents, mostly in PDF form because people can't HTML for whatever reason. Just use "site:.gov usaid 4chan" on Google. I have more of them bookmarked on my workstation. There are also disinformation documents to…

USAID is a soft power clearing house for the US government. Long ago, the state department, CIA and DOD were all running soft power operations and in an effort to consolidate them, USAID was created. It is supposed to get people to like the US government. Before Obama, it wasn't supposed to be operating "on US soil" but he changed that. By the time Trump was elected, it would be hard to say that it was effective at its task. If anything, it seemed to be doing the opposite of what it was supposed to be doing.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#469
The UK law is stupid, but they have every right to regulate content in their own country. Just because a business operates in another country does not release it from obligations in other countries where they operate.

4chan, like any company is free to withdraw their business if they do not agree with the laws there.

This is how every law works in every country for every type of business.

Re: 4Chan Lawyer publishes Ofcom correspondence

#470
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As an American business, you can choose to ignore that, but that has consequences if any of your board of directors ever sets foot in the UK. The board of directors for a private company is generally secret in the US. Only the "manager" aka president/CEO/whoever at the top is generally named publicly, as well as legal agent.

I suspect that MI6 could find a US private company's directors names if they wanted to. We're not talking about nuclear launch codes here.

Not really that easily? Generally, only the legal agent for the private company will know and the direct hires of the board i.e. the CEO/CTO/whoever they name up top. Sometimes board of directors can get named in court records but with the public records redacted. But outside of that? Not even the IRS knows unless the directors get compensation.

MI6 would have to commit a few physical in person crimes to get any details out of any reasonably well run operation.

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