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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#461

Post by idiotsecant »

sokoloff wrote: post #351
perching_aix wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. Care to name even a single objective good, and explain how exactly it is objectively good?

I would posit that caring for helpless infants is an objective good. It’s not clear to me how I’d explain that to someone who doesn’t inherently understand it.

Is caring for a helpless infant objectively good if it is infected with an extremely virulent plague that will undoubtedly kill any human who comes in contact with it, or a human who comes into contact with them, or them, many layers deep? What if that infant has 2 days to live no matter what, but millions of people will die if it's cared for?

Objective good does not exist, context is king.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#462

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

jkhdigital wrote: post #440
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. But I think that people should be able to decide when they want to end their lives if it is because of pain that won’t get any better, a terminal illness that causes pain etc. while they have all of their cognitive functions. But we should put guardrails around if the reason for assisted suicide is not pressure from relatives, depression, etc.

How many “legitimate” assisted suicides are worth one questionable case? There are no foolproof guardrails, and you’re inviting moral hazard.

Doctor to a high degree of certainty know which diseases are terminal or cause a deteriorating condition that will cause pain where the person has all of their cognitive ability. That’s why I carved out Alzheimer’s or dementia.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#463

Post by Thorrez »

mft_ wrote: post #352
Thorrez wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barbara Wagner [1]: >Her last hope was a $4,000-a-month drug that her doctor prescribed for her, but the insurance company refused to pay. >What the Oregon Health Plan did agree to cover, however, were drugs for a physician-assisted death. Those drugs would cost about $50. Randy Stroup [2]: > Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded to Stroup's re…

It's a very odd take to think examples of insurance companies refusing life-extending treatment and instead offering assisted suicide indicates a problem with assisted suicide. Just to be clear: the insurance companies are the problem here; and more broadly this whole for-profit model of healthcare.

In the first 2 examples, Oregon Health Plan is arguably not a company. It's run by the Oregon government.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#464

Post by [deleted] »

jamiek88 wrote: post #359
antegamisou wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Euthanasia in Switzerland ^ has been a notorious profitable practice for years, compared to the Netherlands where it's almost exclusively practiced on those with terminal debilitating disease. ^ Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means to it are made legal.

Stop spreading unsupported lies.

[deleted]

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#465

Post by p0w3n3d »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

What you say is "you don't want to end up with mental state because people will hate you" but TBH mental illness, though really harsh on environment, shouldn't be viewed differently than any other illness like broken leg. When person is riding a wheelchair you don't tell them "hey you're a pain in the ass because you drive so slow and cannot jump on the stairs" - we tend to give them hand, help by building ramps and lifts. The same should be with mentally ill. Places safe for them, mabe remembering aids software in a watch?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#466

Post by tsimionescu »

sokoloff wrote: post #351
perching_aix wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. Care to name even a single objective good, and explain how exactly it is objectively good?

I would posit that caring for helpless infants is an objective good. It’s not clear to me how I’d explain that to someone who doesn’t inherently understand it.

What does "care for" mean, precisely? Is circumcising or baptizing them objectively good, so that they don't burn in hell for all eternity? What about shaping their skull in a more pleasing form? If they have ambiguous but otherwise working genitals, should you do surgery to assign them a clear sex? Or unto more mundane affairs, is it objectively good to give them baby formula instead of mother's milk, or maybe the other way around? Is it objectively good to take them from their parents and care for them yourself if the parents are not caring for them? How do you objectively determine if the parents are caring for them?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#467

Post by arresin »

raffael_de wrote: post #157
arresin wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will have an eternity to be dead. I want every second. Even if it’s painful. I am still alive.

Are you sure you understand how painful pain can be? Especially when you experience it daily and there is no hope for recovery?

I think you underestimate the length of eternity.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#468

Post by doetoe »

AQuantized wrote: post #92
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

To more precisely represent the words of the person you're replying to, you should have said "memories" not "opinions".

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#469

Post by anigbrowl »

firesteelrain wrote: post #447
anigbrowl wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it. You are not the arbiter of what the heart of the debate is.

I am freely able to set the tone and make arguments wherever I see fit in responding

Sure, but it's obvious that many don't agree with your views.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#470

Post by tsimionescu »

Noaidi wrote: post #397
prmoustache wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dementia and Alzheimer is not something that can simply be managed throught treatment. It is an inexorable descent into suffering for both the person and its entourage with absolutely zero hope of getting better. At best in the last stages you get very short glimpses of normality within hours of confusions, frustrations, anger and pain. If I am ever diagnosed with one of those, I absolutely want the chance to end my…

I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all at different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift? Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it’s a burden? If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that yo…

Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is that a person who suffers from this is simply not the person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up in a place that they don't recognize or remember ever living in, nor remembering how they got there. Their life essentially becomes a series of TikTok reels in which they are the main actor, or a vivid dream. Not only are they not the same "self" that you loved, they are usually not even a coherent "self" beyond a few tens of minutes.

And, just to make everything as heartwrenching as possible, in this series of short reels their mind is swiping through, they occasionally become the person you had loved, for some minutes. And you know that these moments will never get more common, only rarer, but you can't help but think that they're "still in there".

It is my firm belief that any sense of "me" would be long dead by this time. Keeping my body and scraps of my consciousness alive only to torment my loved ones, caregivers, and neighbors would be a cruelty that would serve no purpose. I hope that I don't ever have to make this choice, but I also hope that, if I am ever diagnosed, I will have the chance to make this choice and avoid such suffering.

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