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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#461

Post by lukan »

lmf4lol wrote: post #422
Asmod4n wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Verfassungsschutz disagrees with you.

The Verfassungsschutz is anything but objective. And even if: They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover". I've read the whole report. Did you?

Sure. That is why the former boss had to step down. But by now they surely weeded out all the nazi sympathisers?

Are you aware of the NSU case?

"They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover""

But no, they don't claim that. They claim parts of the AfD plan a fascist takeover.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#463

Post by selfmodruntime »

kakacik wrote: post #407
selfmodruntime wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany does have limited Freedom. I won't move an inch in this matter. The exact paragraph behind the Habeck or Grote case is now being abused by the literal thousands each year. And violent crime is on the rise, we are currently back at a 2005 level. It is very easy to find sources on this matter.

No place has absolute freedom, not sure what you are rambling about. Making up some extra categories that suit your own narrative doesn't change reality.

I was never talking about absolute freedom. You have moved the goalposts.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#464

Post by moooo99 »

Propelloni wrote: post #433
selfmodruntime wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well.

> Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well. What? No. I'm an employer in Germany and I can tell you that's wrong.

People frequently hold remarkably strong opinions on a system they appear to have very little understanding about.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#465

Post by leshenka »

regularjack wrote: post #212
ZeroConcerns wrote: post #3

OK, really hot take here: -ChatControl, as it is currently defined, is not going to happen, because it's absolutely stupid and would make impossible, amongst other things, online banking -Yet, there is a growing and legitimate demand for lawful interception of 'chat' services. I mean, "sure, your bank account got emptied, but we can't look into that because it happened via Signal" just isn't a good look -So, somethin…

Nothing has to give. Police did their work fine for centuries, they can continue doing it without mass surveillance.

But that's not a fair statement. Police did their work for centuries but it was nowhere near "fine" by modern standards and today there's a hundred ways more to commit crime

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#466

Post by blurbleblurble »

dylan604 wrote: post #81
blurbleblurble wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without confidential and private spaces, how in the world can relational trust be cultivated? And how in the world can we have safety if relational trust is suffocated before it can even take root? Please use your imagination! Those aren't the only options if we embrace trust as essential rather than looking at any need for it as a liability.

why do you think they want relation trust. unless you mean trusting that if you go against the man, the man will come for you. maybe it would be better for s/trust/fear/

: _ (

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#467

Post by camillomiller »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #372
indigo945 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a different case though. The Habeck meme thing happened somewhere near Bamberg, the CBS article recounts "state police [...] raided this apartment in northwest Germany". Look, I'm not saying that the police or the ministry of the interior never abuse their power, far from it. (There was also the Andy Grote case a few years back.) But please remember that the original claim we are discussing, from a few comment…

Germany does have limited Freedom. I won't move an inch in this matter. The exact paragraph behind the Habeck or Grote case is now being abused by the literal thousands each year. And violent crime is on the rise, we are currently back at a 2005 level. It is very easy to find sources on this matter.

This is patently false. Any claim of the contrary is AfD propaganda, aiming at destabilising society.

Source: https://www.dw.com/en/crime-statistics-knife-crime-drugs-lif...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#468

Post by KPGv2 »

numpad0 wrote: post #425
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, for the same reason, it's in everybody else's best interest that an organisation that might be taken over by fascists not have access to a panopticon.

I think that "everybody else" include literal fascists. Nazi's Gestapo had serious issues with Wernher von Braun to the point Hitler had to be bothered. East Germany's Stasi had more personnel per capita than Russian KGB had. They would know that a secret police in a German state isn't a great idea regardless of ideology. Had Hitler not able to stop Gestapo from sending von Braun to a death camp, not only history of…

> No way that serious neo-Nazis wouldn't think about that.

Unless Germany's serious neo-Nazis are especially wiser than America's equivalent far-right groups (which have played the political game well enough to achieve significant power already), I am not sure current evidence supports this supposition.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#469

Post by selfmodruntime »

brazukadev wrote: post #413
selfmodruntime wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By your own definitions the USA isn't a capitalist economy due to regulations and their social welfare policies. If that's where you stand then any further discussion is going to be pointless. Those are not my definitions. > It's a straightforward logical inference. Your definition of capitalism excludes every capitalist economy that has ever existed No. A social market economy is capitalism with rules and safety n…

> A social market economy is capitalism with rules and safety nets, like strong labor protections, healthcare, and pensions, to make sure people are protected from big hardships so it is not socialism, the whole point of this discussion.

> so it is not socialism, the whole point of this discussion.

No, the whole point of this discussion is that someone claimed Germany was capitalist. Which it isn't. It's in between systems.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#470

Post by selfmodruntime »

onli wrote: post #418
selfmodruntime wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even public libraries aren't free! Because they aren't public. They are provided by a company. > And let's not mention the health care system, which literally has two tiers, one for the poor and one for the rich, with of course the poor-tier being barely functional, and still expensive as fuck This is because of inefficiency, an aging demographic and regulation, not because of capitalism. The "system for the rich"…

>> Even public libraries aren't free! > Because they aren't public. They are provided by a company. If you are talking actual libraries here: Hm? Public libraries are provided by the city - all I have ever seen in Germany. They usually cost a member pass, though I have seen completely free ones, but it's either a one-time payment or a yearly recurring fee. Small numbers though, can be as little as 5 Euro. Public libr…

> If you are talking actual libraries here:

Nope, sorry, I made a mistake. I was writing about the public toilets from the sentence before.

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