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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

riksbank.se

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Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#461
post #46

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Very interesting, never heard of these. Thank you.

“Never heard of these”, meanwhile I was remembering a credit card that I used so often that I wore the coloring off the raised numbers. And I guess if one has never seen these, I need to explain. In order to leave an impression on the carbon paper (I should probably explain that, too, huh?), a fair amount of pressure was needed (those old card imprinters didn’t require a gym membership, but a child could not operate…

If I remember correctly, this sound is part of Pink Floyd's song "Money"... part of the background rhythm. I wonder how many of the "Never heard of these" crowd would recognize it if they hard it in person... smile

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your card doesn't know the balance, it doesn't work like that. Offline transactions mostly died off when the limit in the UK for contactless was raised to £100. At £20/30 (the original limits) issuers/merchants risk accept some payments not being valid (and the total limit before you had to chip and pin was fairly low top). And worth saying, the merchant has some control on the terminal but mostly the decision of off…

Out of interest is this both debit and credit cards, or just debit?

Some debit cards don't allow offline transactions, usually when the cardholder isn't allowed to be in debt.

In the olden days, you'd get a Visa Electron or Solo debit card in the UK if you were under 18 or had a poor credit history.

Visa Electron and Solo were online authorisation-only card brands (also known as "immediate authorisation").

If you didn't have enough money in your account, the transaction would be declined. Visa Electron cards didn't have embossed numbers on the front, so couldn't be used with the old-fashioned card imprinters.

Visa Electron and Solo have been discontinued now, so people with poor credit can get a Visa Debit or MasterCard debit card, but with offline authorisation disabled.

That does mean those cards can't work in some places (e.g. on aeroplanes or trains).

Credit Cards generally always support offline authorisation.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#463

Are they talking about something like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter Or is there some sort of technological breakthrough?

This is just reenabling existing technology. Card chip already has everything required to verify the card and PIN[0], the only thing internet access is required is checking if account is not empty/over limit.

[0] That also means that after changing PIN on bank site, you have to visit ATM, so new PIN is actually stored on card - but that it only required for that offline mode.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offline credit card transactions are still supported, and Square even supports it in the US. Europe use of debit cards instead of credit cards is much higher than the US.

That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. If you need credit, there are credit options with much lower rates than what credit cards offer. And the reason credit card benefits suck is due to european interchange fee caps and regulation.

Multiple reports have shown merchants are raising the costs for all consumers to cover the credit card accepting costs.

I really hope you're getting paid to pretend to be this gullible to the most basic of the credit-card companies schemes.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on where you are. But all the major networks expect auths before capture, even if it isn’t technically enforced, and will punish gateways and merchants who have low auth rates. Auth before capture doesn’t generally reduce interchange. What it primarily does is shift liability in the event of a dispute. If a chargeback is raised, and no auth happened, then the merchant simply looses immediately. They have…

I always wondered how come that some online merchants where I record the card do not ask for auth or 2 factor and some other does. For example, I have recorded my card info in a webapp that I use to pay the bills, and it never asks for anything, which is good, as I have many bills to pay, and I wouldn't want spam of 2FAs. Can you provide some technical terminology on this behavior or links, since you seem to be in th…

Ultimately all this stuff comes down to risk and risk management. The card networks themselves don’t provide any technical enforcement of most of their rules, beyond low level technical rules around message format and structure (and even that enforcement is pretty small).

Instead they effectively make all the parties that connect to the network responsible for rule enforcement. If a merchant follows all the rules correctly then they receive extremely strong chargeback protection, I.e. if an issuer sends a chargeback, and the merchant has plenty of grounds to dispute the chargeback and win.

If merchants don’t follow all the rules, then issuers can send chargebacks, and it’s much harder for the merchants to defend themselves.

In all scenarios it up to the issuers and merchants to explain in the chargeback what rules have been broken, by which party, and thus who should win based on network transaction rules. The networks themselves don’t even make a ruling directly, instead the issuer and merchant decide who wins via a back and forth process that includes escalating fees paid to each other, until one side gives up. The networks only get involved the two sides can’t resolve the issue themselves, and will charge the looser a significant fee for the privilege, so there’s a strong incentive for the parties to resolve the issue themselves.

How does of this interact with 2FA, auths etc etc. Basically 2FA, and ordinary auths are all just things a merchant can do, or trigger, to reduce their liability and get better chargeback protection. If the merchant performed a full 3DS auth, where the issuer is asked to perform 2FA, then they have pretty complete chargeback protection in the event of fraud, because they’ve basically asked issuer to make absolutely 100% that this transaction has been approved by the issuer’s customer, so there’s zero grounds later to claim that a stolen card was used or something similar. If the issuer’s customer wants to dispute the transaction, that’s the issuers problem.

But all of these mechanisms reduce checkout rates, and thus merchant revenue. As a result some extremely large merchants make a trade off of basically accepting all the risk of fraudulent transactions, and give up chargeback protection, but not following all the rules. The merchant does this because they’ve basically asked believe they have enough data to prevent fraudulent transactions, without using any of the tools the card networks provide.

For merchants that can do this (like Amazon), they build in-house fraud detection systems, and payment systems that evaluate the risk of each transaction, then change the exact way they perform the transaction to either reduce friction (because the transaction is very low risk) or increase friction (because the transaction is higher risk), thus allowing them to capture more revenue, without taking on more risk (because they have confidence their ability to detect fraud, and thus don’t need help from the issuers).

But there are very few merchants that can even do this, as it generally requires either a very collaborative payment gateway (who are ultimately on the hook for merchant misbehaviour), or a direct connection to the card networks (who aren’t interested in talking to people not moving millions of dollars every day). Which is why it tends to pretty rare.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offline credit card transactions are still supported, and Square even supports it in the US. Europe use of debit cards instead of credit cards is much higher than the US.

That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. If you need credit, there are credit options with much lower rates than what credit cards offer. And the reason credit card benefits suck is due to european interchange fee caps and regulation.

Credit card benefits suck in the US now too, no?

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon as well seems to never do proper auth (at least here in the UK). When using an existing card where the delivery address matches the billing address, card transactions go through instantly

There is no rule that there has to be a single payment per authorization, if you read for example mastercard API https://in.gateway.mastercard.com/api/documentation/integrat... it says you can partially capture, you can extend authorization. So for all you know when you buy at amazon it just updates the authorization and charges you later but keeps authorization going and amazon might just check if they have auth tok…

It’s a lot more complicated and nuanced than that. The API docs you link too are for an API that covers a tiny fraction of what can be expressed in the actual ISO 8583 messages which are the real “API” of the card networks. The docs for those are hundreds of pages long.

Plus you need to analyse how the different messages types and sequence of messages interact with the transaction processing rules, which are also hundreds of pages long.

Suffice to say, the entire system is insanely complicated, and just about everyone out there implements it all incorrectly, with the whole system on working because partners are only allowed to complain about the insanity if they actually loose money. Until that point they’re expected to just handle everything as best they can.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people that like cheques? For no good reason, I keep a list of why I use checks (in the U.S.): - Charitable donations because charities maximize every penny, and electronic contributions eat into that - Paying the accountant - Good accountants make every penny count, and aren't interested in paying credit card overhead. - Tipping the paperboy at Christmas - Tipping the doorman at Christmas - Business licens…

One of the many surprising things on that list is that paperboys still exist! I thought printed papers were all but dead even in the US and can't recall the last time I saw a stand or store where I could buy one. They faded away unceremoniously, like phone booths. That there is enough money in it to motivate kids to get up in the morning still today I would never have guessed. Also astonishing are the size and presen…

I thought printed papers were all but dead even in the US

In its last financial statement, the New York Times reported 600,000 print subscribers. (Plus something like 20 million paid online subs.)

Newsstands are mostly gone (though there are a few), but my experience over the last few years is that outside of tourist areas, print newspapers are available at most chain drug stores, book stores, and some gas stations. The more urban you are, the more likely you are to find them. They also remain popular in ethnic communities. I recently picked up a monthly printed newspaper in Japanese that is distributed in the DC area.

I can think of five places with six blocks of me that sell newspapers (two drug stores, two bodegas, and a bookstore).

The latest Superman movie even did a PR stunt where the movie company printed up thousands of Gotham newspapers with Superman headlines and distributed them to newspaper racks. I saw them at Walgreens.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offline credit card transactions are still supported, and Square even supports it in the US. Europe use of debit cards instead of credit cards is much higher than the US.

That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them. If you need credit, there are credit options with much lower rates than what credit cards offer. And the reason credit card benefits suck is due to european interchange fee caps and regulation.

> That’s because credit card benefits suck in Europe and there’s no point to using them.

Theres still a very good reason to use them - buyer protection.

I use a Virgin Atlantic reward card and have it set to pay off automatically, never running up debt. It both protects me as a buyer, and has the benefit of taking ~£500 off annual family holidays, and gives me a free companion seat in the process, effectively halving the price for one of the passengers.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some states permit it, some do not. My company claims that allowing me to have both my regular pay and the government pay would be considered an over-payment, and the accountants say it triggers all kinds of messy things. However, at the same time, it is illegal to do this in some American states where we have offices. So it must somehow be possible for the accountants to allow it.

I'd assume they would pay wages, minus the court pay. Given how badly jury duty pays, it seems a wasted effort.

Given how badly jury duty pays, it seems a wasted effort.

It seems to vary from county to county. When I served, we were given a pamphlet stating that the rate had recently been raised.

I don't remember the exact figure, but it was well above minimum wage. Something like $80 for the first and last day, plus $120 for each day between, plus transportation costs.

Far less than what I make as a super cool tech dev bro, but I can see it taking a lot of the pain away for the average person.

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