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This map is not upside down

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Re: This map is not upside down

#461

Post by sentinelsignal »

brainwad wrote: post #368
incr_me wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offensive how? "Developing" and "things aren't so bad" are offensive because they obfuscate imperialist relations. That's the position of the theorists who use "Global North"/"South", anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South#... What do you mean by discriminatory?

As an Australian, I do find it a bit perjorative for countries north of us (many of them in the northern hemisphere!) to be deemed the "global south", while we are excluded despite actually being the only inhabited continent entirely in the south. It just reminds one that nobody cares about the southern hemisphere, and that northern hemisphere types think anything south of the mediterranean is "south". North/South do…

Why do you think the southern hemisphere is mostly ignored? genuinely curious.

Re: This map is not upside down

#462

Post by 542354234235 »

jack_h wrote: post #450
travisjungroth wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West only makes sense in the Northern Hemisphere. I’m in Peru right now, and people talk about the local cultures in comparison to Western culture and I find it kind of confusing. They’re certainly not Eastern here. It gets unconfusing if you realize it just means White.

It's no different than the South in the US which does not include Texas, New Mexica, Arizona, or any other states that are geographically South in the modern day US. Once you understand the historical aspect of the naming it makes sense. The category itself, regardless of its label, is useful. In terms of Latin America being a part of the West or not, that's more interesting. I'm currently reading Samuel P. Huntingto…

>It's no different than the South in the US

There is a saying in Florida, that the farther North you go, the more South you get.

Re: This map is not upside down

#463

Post by deltarholamda »

amiga386 wrote: post #132
the-grump wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree completely. Your map should be bottom-heavy for stability.

No no no. We should put Asia at the top, Europe bottom left, Africa bottom right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_and_O_map

We called it the Orient because at one time to orient yourself meant to face east towards the rising Sun. So maps with east at the top make sense.

Re: This map is not upside down

#464

Post by will4274 »

rivetfasten wrote: post #7

The West Wing has such a good clip about this: https://youtu.be/vVX-PrBRtTY?si=05KQjltJ8fVsqMDw

I think the West Wing clip highlights how out of date the thinking in the article is. When this clip was filmed, turn by turn navigation didn't exist yet. If the average person saw a map, it had north at the top. By contrast, these days, if I see a map, the direction I'm currently going is normally up. I don't find it freaky for maps to be oriented with north down because I see a map like that every time I drive south in my car.

Re: This map is not upside down

#465

Post by llm_nerd »

shirro wrote: post #326
llm_nerd wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing I resent most is the terms Global North and Global South ... because white people invaded 200 years ago ... It is completely arbitrary, political and divisive. There is nothing "arbitrary" about the classification, and it was created by aid groups originally based upon socioeconomic factors, later adopted by the UN and others as the term third-world went out of favour after the Cold War ended. It got the…

Can anyone explain to me convincingly why Singapore is in the Global South on development and economic grounds? I suspect the Global South at least as far as Asia is concerned is almost entirely about global political alignment. Countries in the US alliance appear to be labelled North. Singapore is highly developed and like the rest of ASEAN is non-aligned. China is a global superpower and people align to them. SK, J…

Because it fit when the classification originated and has never asked to be reclassified. South Korea was also considered a developing country and was cast as the global South back in the early days, but diplomatically and through its membership in the OECD became a developed/Global North country. If Singapore is offended it can ask UNCTAD and get reassigned.

Ultimately it largely doesn't even matter. It's a casual shorthand that in the overwhelming majority of cases is an accurate split between developed and developing/poorer countries. Some tiny city-state counterpoint isn't really convincing. Orgs like UNCTAD use it to high-level report on progress in lifting up developing nations.

As to alliances, ignoring that you're completely backtracking on your original post regarding that (you know the one where Australia is actual pals with all its neighbours and the N/S thing is a big lie), for obvious reasons the world's most prosperous countries tend to have common interests. Not to mention that a number of countries with a shared history (e.g. the commonwealth and the colonies) ended up being some of the richest countries.

Re: This map is not upside down

#466

Post by 542354234235 »

kens wrote: post #177
hyperhello wrote: post #2

> Psychologically, we tend to view things nearer the top as ‘good’ and those lower as ‘bad.’ This, of course, is the point of the article. It was so predictable that it made me wonder: who is telling me that top is good and lower is bad? The articles themselves.

I highly recommend the book "Metaphors We Live By", which discusses how metaphors are not arbitrary, but are part of schemas. For instance, there are whole classes of orientational metaphors that fall into the schemas: "more is up, less is down", "good is up, bad is down", "virtue is up, depravity is down", "rational is up, emotional is down", "having control is up, being subject to control is down", and so on. (Yes,…

Or how some cultures see time "passing" like a progress bar filling up, while others see time filling up like a barrel, while other see time cycling, like the seasons. How English speakers would say they have a "long" meeting, Spanish speakers might say a "big" meeting. Our abstractions effect our perceptions.

Re: This map is not upside down

#467

Post by IndySun »

It's a brilliant article. Anyone here irritated or moralised should reconsider.

"Psychologically, we tend to view things nearer the top as ‘good’ and those lower as ‘bad'."

Isn't that the salient point? Just a simple, yet fascinating thing.

Re: This map is not upside down

#468

Post by j4coh »

strken wrote: post #394
j4coh wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t seem to even get this effect, the map looks upside down not mind blowing. If I turn a mug over it’s not a mind blowing new thing, it’s an upside down mug.

Steady on now: there's an interesting psychological effect going on. A well known art exercise is to draw a subject upside down, particularly a person or a scene with a clear usual orientation. When you take something you're very familiar with and turn it upside down, you see all the details - volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour - with fresh eyes. With art, it becomes easier to draw a…

If you're sitting on the opposite side of a table looking at a map that a person on the other side laid out in front of them, you don't just see the map from the other side? You instead see details about volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour, and so on? I sincerely just see the same map even if I'm across the table, except flipped. I'm not sure how it would impact my drawing a map, though that isn't really what the article talks about.

Can you read upside-down or does it become a jumble of lines? I can read upside-down with no special effort so maybe this is canceling something out.

Re: This map is not upside down

#469

Post by j4coh »

542354234235 wrote: post #459
Levitz wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The direction with which you perceive the mug is not any more arbitrary than that of the map, you are just prioritizing the direction gravity takes rather than its opposite, same as magnetism and the north. You can change your entire system of reference and the setup still makes sense. Same with the map.

A map is a flat, visual representation of an area, showing its features and locations using symbols and drawings. The system of reference can change, like magnetism and north, and the map still functions as a map. A drinking mug is a large, cylindrical cup with a handle, typically made of earthenware, used to hold hot beverages like coffee or tea. The orientation relative to gravity is fundamental to the functioning…

Okay, forget gravity. If you stand on your head and look at the mug, do you get lots of insights about a mug that you wouldn't have had standing upright? Does it look different, or is it just an upside-down mug? For me I would just get the upside-down mug.

I suspect I don't have this thing the article mentions where I associate the bottoms of things with badness, so I don't get this effect where the bad bottom suddenly becomes the good top if I flip it or myself over. There's just no effect except perhaps getting dizzy.

Re: This map is not upside down

#470

Post by BrandoElFollito »

j4coh wrote: post #468
strken wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steady on now: there's an interesting psychological effect going on. A well known art exercise is to draw a subject upside down, particularly a person or a scene with a clear usual orientation. When you take something you're very familiar with and turn it upside down, you see all the details - volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour - with fresh eyes. With art, it becomes easier to draw a…

If you're sitting on the opposite side of a table looking at a map that a person on the other side laid out in front of them, you don't just see the map from the other side? You instead see details about volume, shape, distance between points, geometric similarity, colour, and so on? I sincerely just see the same map even if I'm across the table, except flipped. I'm not sure how it would impact my drawing a map, thou…

I agree. In addition I can relate to elements (such as imagining the road from Paris to Munich), it just takes more processing.
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