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WASM 3.0 Completed

webassembly.org

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Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#461

Post by yoden »

dfabulich wrote: post #342
cedws wrote: post #180

When is WASM finally going to be able to touch the DOM? It feels like that was the whole point of WASM and instead its become a monster of its own that barely has anything to do with web anymore. When can we finally kill JavaScript?

Basically never, because it would require re-standardizing the DOM with a lower-level API. That would take years, and no major browser implementor is interested in starting down that road. https://danfabulich.medium.com/webassembly-wont-get-direct-d... Killing JavaScript was never the point of WASM. WASM is for CPU-intensive pure functions, like video decoding. Some people wrongly thought that WASM was trying to kill…

That's the issue with WASM. Very, very few people want a limited VM that's only good for CPU-intensive pure functions. The WASM group has redirected a huge amount of resources to create something almost nobody wants.

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#462

Post by hajile »

cedws wrote: post #180

When is WASM finally going to be able to touch the DOM? It feels like that was the whole point of WASM and instead its become a monster of its own that barely has anything to do with web anymore. When can we finally kill JavaScript?

Even if you had that environment today, how would you replace the function of JS?

Web development moves faster than any software in history. A lot of this is on the back of JS being ergonomic/fast to code and having very good performance and a lot of what makes it good at this is also what coders familiar with other languages dislike.

What other language has that right combination of really fast development and good performance?

You would probably have to go outside the mainstream to something like Scheme or StandardML to get the ergonomics and performance, but that would upset a whole other group of people.

After that is an even bigger problem. If everyone adopts different languages, different frameworks for those languages, and different user-facing APIs for the WASM APIs, then finding devs for your frontend team who can be productive quickly suddenly becomes impossibly hard.

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#463

Post by jesse__ »

apitman wrote: post #438
stevefan1999 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's supposedly WASI, an interface specifically designated for system programming use, and that's where it implements part of the POSIX support including pthread. OTOH you still need to start a wasm runtime first, then import the WASI module into the wasm host. P.S.: used to tinker with wasmtime and wasmi to add wasm support to my half abandoned deno clone ;) I learned this the hard way

I think GP was probably using Emscripten

Correct

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#464

Post by pjmlp »

rglullis wrote: post #414
btreecat wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > a worse is better mentality world. > > Seems like your preferred world is the totalitarian "choose any color you want as long as it is black" one, where everything is perfectly optimized and perfectly integrated into a single platform. Idk, I have a feeling they would be anti systemd too

I am not so sure. Both Pottering and pjmlp are German.

While I live in DACH region, my passport carries another flag.

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#465

Post by pjmlp »

rglullis wrote: post #409
pjmlp wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the world we build for ourselves, a worse is better mentality world.

> a worse is better mentality world. Seems like your preferred world is the totalitarian "choose any color you want as long as it is black" one, where everything is perfectly optimized and perfectly integrated into a single platform.

Yep, think different.

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#466

Post by jesse__ »

halfcat wrote: post #448
jesse__ wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say two things about this. 1. Opening the native keyboard and plumbing those events through to the WASM runtime sounds pretty easy. It's probably not cause modern software , but conceptually it should be trivial.. right?? 2. In terms of 'the boss' wanting to do 'that one weird thing' that there isn't a library/plugin/whatever for in DearImgui land. If dev time for everything else gets faster, than the 10x cost of…

> Opening the native keyboard… I think this is the roadblock, that there isn’t always a way to pop open the keyboard programmatically. Rather, the mobile keyboard only pops up when there’s a DOM input element detected. So it would need a hidden input layered on top of the ImGui WASM app and mapping coordinates, or would need an HTML input element overlayed on top of every text input.

I mean, yikes. But having a hidden html input you just piggy back off of also doesn't sound that bad

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#467

Post by jason-johnson »

dcchambers wrote: post #81
flohofwoe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That old thing again ;) Direct DOM access doesn't make any sense as a WASM feature. It would be at best a web-browser feature which browser vendors need to implement outside of WASM (by defining a standardized C-API which maps to the DOM JS API and exposing that C API directly to WASM via the function import table - but that idea is exactly as horrible in practice as it sounds in theory). If you need to manipulate th…

> Direct DOM access doesn't make any sense as a WASM feature. I disagree. The idea of doing DOM manipulation in a language that is not Javascript was *the main reason* I was ever excited about WASM.

Me too but e.g. Leptos makes the case that it isn't as important as some of us had imagined: https://youtu.be/4KtotxNAwME?si=cqprHdxU5oYAb0V_

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#468

Post by rglullis »

pjmlp wrote: post #465
rglullis wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a worse is better mentality world. Seems like your preferred world is the totalitarian "choose any color you want as long as it is black" one, where everything is perfectly optimized and perfectly integrated into a single platform.

Yep, think different.

I don't know if you are serious or just trying to evade the discussion.

Two questions:

1) What is the primary OS for your desktop?

2) Would you sincerely make the argument that a world where everyone submits to a single design (Apple-style) would be better than an "organic" world where the barrier of entry is lower, but less "optimal"?

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#469

Post by jpc0 »

wffurr wrote: post #424
jpc0 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are telling me I can now directly render from WASM into the viewport of the browser with a11y? Nope, then it’s still restricted to interacting with the DOM through JS or or renderings to a cavas with no a11y support or significantly worse dx for a11y because you would need to render a screen reader only document layout ontop of your actual UI, instead of just handing the browser an interaction tree and allowin…

You can write Wasm bindings to the native UI toolkit of your choice and render with that. It doesn’t have to be in the DOM.

You understand why that is exactly pointless…

I could write those exact same bindings for my language that I will compile to wasm and then use the current WASI interface, but even that is pointless because at that point I have written a native app, what good reason would I need to run it through an emulator, specifically when a modern OS is already sandboxing things.

If I am targeting the browser my above point stands, unless the DOM is already a reasonably decent API for what needs to be built(it probably isn’t, it’s the best example you can get of horrible API design in my opinion) then I will need to build something ontop of that, prime example being react.

So I need to run my code in an interpreter, having built data structures to generate a document in an eDSL, which creates other data structures, which then calls into another API, which then calls into the OS/hardware layer.

When what I want to do, is call into the OS/hardware layer directly…

Re: WASM 3.0 Completed

#470

Post by petralithic »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #441
pjmlp wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have, but not by choice, I miss my native apps, even though ChromeOS Platform pays the bills.

I have wanted to try Chrome for the longest time but I cant justify overspending (you need a lot of memory for the modern web) and not being able to install half the Linux apps I would want OOTB (out of the box is a big deal for me). I am still shocked Google has not rubbed two brain cells together and built a serious Google ChromeOS version for developers with a real desktop environment and real access to Linux, and…

That's literally ChromeOS now, it comes with a terminal built in and you can run any Linux apps
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