Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

freyaindia.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

461–470 of 537 posts

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#461

Post by stevenAthompson »

Spivak wrote: post #148
Mtinie wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you that from my singular anecdotal experience that a diagnosis does not imbue economic and financial benefit.

I can second the assertion. It's absurd that people really believe folks are getting benefits from having a mental disorder. It's literally the "welfare queen" nonsense just directed at a new group. You don't even get social benefits, no one excuses your behavior just because it has a label. You get told it's your fault for not managing your disorder properly. Have you seen how we treat people with visible, obvious,…

66% of autistic adults admit having suicidal thoughts. 35% have attempted suicide.

If they're faking it for benefits they are REALLY committed to the bit.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#462

Post by const_cast »

HK-NC wrote: post #434
seethedeaduu wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generations identifying as trans: Is this surprising? 20 years ago in many parts of the world the only way to survive as a trans person was through prostitution. You would be forced to live as an outcast, far away from "normal people". There were barely any legal protections, you could often not change your legal sex, finding any information about what this is or its treatments (not a fetish, something that million…

Why is this specific thing completely unquestionable for self diagnosis without any kind of test? It seems to be treated as if no child could possibly feel slightly less than the ideal representation of their sex and end up embracing the trans identity just like someone might embrace ADHD or autism because of some minor common personality trait. The difference being one annoyingly reminds people theyre ADHD every tim…

We don't view it as unquestionable, we question it quiet a bit. Like, a lot actually. And people do change course if they want, that happens sometimes.

And on the topic of infertility, it's complicated. Many people have no desire to have children, and many people are infertile anyway. I'm infertile due to cancer, and little did I know this was pre-determined at birth. I didn't even make it to my mid twenties before that chicken came to roost.

But I face a lot less stigma and questioning about that. Everyone is quick to accept I'm infertile and that's that, and there's nothing anyone could have done. If this happened in my 50s this would make more sense. But, I didn't. I became infertile around the same time many people choose to transition. And yet, my infertility isn't a topic of discussion.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#463

Post by const_cast »

wat10000 wrote: post #392
WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's why there's now suddenly an influx of ADHD and Autism diagnosis - because in the past anyone outside of the norm who wasn't lucky to do one of the things above was simply ignored, beaten, or died. I think you're understating how well those people were incorporated into society. My grandfather was born in the 20s and was described as quite "high strung", was amazing with technology, would repair anything, and e…

Sounds like the lesson from Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer: deviation from the norm will be punished unless it’s exploitable. Would your grandfather have been so well integrated if his problems had not been offset by such ability?

You're downvoted but you're correct. Disordered people who did not offer some sort of economic gain in a market were simply institutionalized. Autistic people who were not high functioning were pretty much as good as dead. Same thing goes for depression, anxiety, and schizophrenia. We had no systems in place for people who cannot work. Physical disabilities were more of the same. If you could work, it was okay-ish. You'll still get treated as a freak and discriminated against daily, but you weren't completely shut out of society. If you couldn't work, however...

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#464

Post by trealira »

const_cast wrote: post #460
EGreg wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word “disorder” is loaded, but it is interesting to also look through the lens of the Social Theory of Disability. For the rise in diagnoses for autism, ADD, gender dysphoria, eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa, bulimia etc. Just as we now view the historical labeling of women as suffering from “hysteria” as a systemic failure, not a personal pathology, we should interrogate whether current diagnostic regi…

I think comparing LGBTQ+ identifications with mental illness is dangerous. Not too long ago we were quick to lump homosexuality in with these, despite the fact homosexuality is more of a state of being evidenced by real-life actions people willingly take. That being, sex with the same sex. Transgender people often suffer gender dysphoria. You're correct that it's possible that gender dysphoria might be a downstream e…

> Transgender people often suffer gender dysphoria.

That's the definition of it.

> You're correct that it's possible that gender dysphoria might be a downstream effect of society. Namely, we are an extremely gender-segregated society. I'm not saying that it's that simple and all transgender people would disappear if we live in a society with no gender roles or expectations, but certainly they heavily feel the pressure of those gender roles and expectations.

I don't think this is the case. Strict gender roles might make trans people's dysphoria worse, but it's primarily about a strong desire to be the other sex and not have your current sexual characteristics. Even in a world where everything is unisex, a trans person would still feel that discomfort - for a trans girl/woman, that you wish your voice were higher and not like a man's, that your face seems alien, that your genitals are wrong, literally anything sexed about the human body. It's orthogonal to whether a man can wear a dress or makeup. Not all trans women are even that feminine. And if it were about gender roles, then you'd expect more trans women to exist than trans men, given "there's truly only one way to be a man, although there are multiple ways to be a woman."

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#465

Post by const_cast »

trealira wrote: post #464
const_cast wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think comparing LGBTQ+ identifications with mental illness is dangerous. Not too long ago we were quick to lump homosexuality in with these, despite the fact homosexuality is more of a state of being evidenced by real-life actions people willingly take. That being, sex with the same sex. Transgender people often suffer gender dysphoria. You're correct that it's possible that gender dysphoria might be a downstream e…

> Transgender people often suffer gender dysphoria. That's the definition of it. > You're correct that it's possible that gender dysphoria might be a downstream effect of society. Namely, we are an extremely gender-segregated society. I'm not saying that it's that simple and all transgender people would disappear if we live in a society with no gender roles or expectations, but certainly they heavily feel the pressur…

There's really two components to gender identity: the socially constructed stuff, which is most of it, and the biological stuff. Usually changing the biological stuff just lends itself to better socially constructed stuff.

Most trans people I know, for example, have no desire to change their genitals. Probably, I'm guessing, because nobody sees that. So their genitals have pretty much no relation to their gender identity. Which makes sense when you think about it. I mean, I gender everyone in my life, including people I see only for a few seconds. But I see very, very little genitals. I'm really just guessing, and everyone is.

It's very complicated. Of course men can wear dressed and makeup and such, but that is a very high-friction activity, borderline dangerous. Women can do that, however. So then I question if there are transwomen out there who would be satisfied in a world where anyone can wear anything. Such a world does not exist, so we don't know.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#466

Post by mapontosevenths »

martindbp wrote: post #300
narrator wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew a gal who grew up in a perfect family with everything she could ever want so she had to invent a victim status and write a book about it magnifying non-problems into protected class level oppression status in order to fit into the woke crowd. Grievance entrepreneurship.

Isn't this almost a requirement for getting into some prestigious American universities via selection based on a personal essay? You can't just be like "I had a great childhood in an upper middle-class family with parents who loved me and supported me".

No, but certain news outlets make it seem that way.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#467

Post by seethedeaduu »

HK-NC wrote: post #434
seethedeaduu wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generations identifying as trans: Is this surprising? 20 years ago in many parts of the world the only way to survive as a trans person was through prostitution. You would be forced to live as an outcast, far away from "normal people". There were barely any legal protections, you could often not change your legal sex, finding any information about what this is or its treatments (not a fetish, something that million…

Why is this specific thing completely unquestionable for self diagnosis without any kind of test? It seems to be treated as if no child could possibly feel slightly less than the ideal representation of their sex and end up embracing the trans identity just like someone might embrace ADHD or autism because of some minor common personality trait. The difference being one annoyingly reminds people theyre ADHD every tim…

There are no tests that can show if someone is trans or not.

> the other could be rendered infertile due to hormones pr castration.

With the alternative of being mutilated forever due to testosterone and being forced to waste decades of your life existing in limbo.

Although I should note that the claim that trans people become permanently infertile due to hormones is questionable.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#468

Post by seethedeaduu »

karohalik wrote: post #445
seethedeaduu wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did not deny that it is in DSM or that there are people who fit the definition provided there. Usually such techniques tend to not work when they are suggested by people who haven't experienced the consdition and haven't put serious thought into them.

I get that he didn’t say that here, but I’ve seen other replies leaning toward the idea that “it’s easy if you just try hard enough” and that’s what I was addressing, too.

I am talking about my psychiatrist. I think you are responding to the wrong person.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#469

Post by trealira »

const_cast wrote: post #465
trealira wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Transgender people often suffer gender dysphoria. That's the definition of it. > You're correct that it's possible that gender dysphoria might be a downstream effect of society. Namely, we are an extremely gender-segregated society. I'm not saying that it's that simple and all transgender people would disappear if we live in a society with no gender roles or expectations, but certainly they heavily feel the pressur…

There's really two components to gender identity: the socially constructed stuff, which is most of it, and the biological stuff. Usually changing the biological stuff just lends itself to better socially constructed stuff. Most trans people I know, for example, have no desire to change their genitals. Probably, I'm guessing, because nobody sees that. So their genitals have pretty much no relation to their gender iden…

> So then I question if there are trans women out there who would be satisfied in a world where anyone can wear anything.

So long as they look in the mirror and see a woman. There are trans women already who just wear jeans and t-shirts and other unisex wear in their everyday lives. There are also trans women who will never come close to passing even after a long time on HRT and surgery and wearing the most feminine clothing, and it's just tragic.

Re: Nobody has a personality anymore: we are products with labels

#470

Post by csa »

seethedeaduu wrote: post #363
marsten wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that time blindness is a fake issue. The problem is that many people incorrectly self-diagnose as suffering from conditions like time blindness. Which they do for a variety of reasons: To externalize accountability for why they're late, to feel special, and so on. A comparison is the large number of people who claim "gluten sensitivity" and maintain special diets. Now there are serious medical condi…

I assume that your solution is having a professional diagnosis. Sadly this doesn't really work due to the current state of psychiatry where many people with legitimate issues are being denied a diagnosis and treatment (see for example: trans healthcare and gatekeeping, adhd healthcare, etc). It is even more weird because often when you go to two different doctors you will get different results. Not to mention that us…

> If you believe that you have celiac but for whatever reason you haven't been able to test it yet, then there is no harm to try going glutten free. The real issue is how many people deny the very existence of glutten sensitivity and put these people in danger. If you look at communities of people with the disease you will see what I am talking about.

You just made one hell of a strawman argument about what GP said.

He merely stated that “the vast majority of self-diagnosed ‘gluten sensitives’ do not have such conditions”, as you quoted. This comment jibes with my experience.

The two folks I know who have full-blown celiac end up projectile vomiting for hours if they consume even small amounts of gluten (e.g., gross contamination in a fryer or on a cutting board).

The two folks I know who have milder versions were able to figure out that they needed to be tested in fairly short order due to “digestion issues” when they ate gluten.

On the other hand, the dozens of other folks I know who claim to be “sensitive to gluten” have no real basis when saying so. When I mentioned to them that I have friends with celiac, and I empathize with them, and I suggest they get tested if they haven’t yet (undiagnosed celiac is real), the answer I get are nothing short of glib - “oh, I’m just on a keto diet, and this is an easy way to do it”, “oh, I just found that I feel bad after eating things like cake” (sugar crash? diabetic?), or “oh, I’m fine, I just want them to make a fresh one (of whatever) for me”.

Your defense of folks who claim a problem that they can (often) fairly easily determine that they don’t have is enabling those folks’ dysfunction — that is, lying to themselves and (per this thread) using labeling as a defensive tactic.

People who actually have celiac need very specific accommodations. But the multiples of people who claim “gluten sensitivity” when they don’t actually have it causes large swathes of the general population to disbelieve the folks who really do have it.

It’s ok to call out the poseurs for what they are while still looking out for folks who have celiac or might have celiac and don’t know it yet.

Post reply on HN