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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#461

Post by thedevilslawyer »

al_borland wrote: post #416
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we unpack this argument we can precisely pinpoint the issue. In order for this argument to be true, Apple would need to have market power. Having market power is the thing that makes tying etc. an antitrust violation. Because it can be used for more than allowing people to cancel subscriptions. Like charging a 30% margin in a market where it's normally 3%, or excluding apps that compete with Apple software or serv…

Steam and Android charge a similar 30% fee in their stores. When I hear about a 3% fee, I think of the interchange fees for a credit card. That doesn’t have the same overhead as hosting the software, handling the updates, managing the front end, reviews, etc. I can only assume that 2-3% of the 30% are going to Visa, as I’m sure Apple is paying interchange fees to process the payments. 30% probably still creates a ver…

Not sure about steam, but it does not fly for android, since sideloading, and alternative stores has always been an option.

Having the ability to move out acts as a great check against unreasonable rent-seeking.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#462

Post by gilfoy »

lrvick wrote: post #351

I detest Apple and would happily switch to a timeline where they never existed. That said, I do not think this is the way to fight them. Just do not make apps for iPhone, or pass the 30% Apple tax to the Apple fanboys. They enjoy being submissive to walled garden overlords and paying for the privilege, so give them what they want. These are perfectly valid options. Create value for more open ecosystems if you want to…

Yeah, I’d probably pay $1.30 instead of $1 for subscriptions just to have them all in one single view where I can cancel them without jumping through hoops.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#463

Post by BlackFly »

MaxPock wrote: post #93

I was curious about the suit by proton because I'm a user until I read authoritarian this democracy that . Proton wants us to believe that corporations should be above nation states and national interests. If country X deems a certain App as a security risk, it is not the work of apple or some vague state department funded organization to protest .

Proton is explicitly suggesting that a company can choose to help a government with an authoritarian agenda, so they agree with you that a company has no obligation to protest. They make no assertions as to whether corporations should be above nation states but they do wear their politics on their sleeve (that authoritarianism should be opposed).

Their point is that they, as a separate company, can choose to object and attempt to offer products to help people evade authoritarianism and that Apple shouldn't be able to interfere with that in the US market in ways that they do. Obviously in the market of the authoritarian regime they can interfere, but that has no bearing to a US court.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#464

Post by palata »

kotaKat wrote: post #424
palata wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no requirement to build an app for iOS devices. Either this is bad faith, or you are uninformed. > that's the cost of doing business. All the question is there. Is that the cost of doing business, or is Apple abusing their dominant position?

That's not bad faith. Go build another phone if you don't like it. Go be one of those weird freaks with a Graphene phone that can't access carrier RCS because Google says no.

That has nothing to do with what I said. There are, most definitely, requirements to build an app for iOS devices.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#465

Post by mvanbaak »

solarexplorer wrote: post #385
DidYaWipe wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really the most interesting thing I read in this screed, the rest of which seemed to be clueless BS like, "changes to App Store policies that will improve the state of the internet." No. Unlike Google, Meta, and Amazon, Apple is not a gatekeeper to the Internet. They are the gatekeeper to one thing: their own app store. It's tiresome to hear the same anti-"big-tech" hysteria aimed at Apple. They aren't a monopol…

> They are the gatekeeper to one thing: their own app store. They also control the OS and don't allow side-loading or other app stores (without putting absurd obstacles in the way) So in the end they completely control the devices they sell.

The end user is _NOT_ forced to buy into their ecosystem though. There are alternatives, and depending on where on this globe you ask, apple is not even the one with the biggest marketshare.

So while I'm not against the general outcry and need for change, it is not just apple. The problem is way way bigger, and it should not be put onto one of the players in my opinion. Create regulation/platform that sets the limits, then put ALL players into the process not just one

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#466

Post by rickdeckard »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

Apple has not just created integrated HW/SW to sell as a product, with the AppStore they created a closed market within that product that only Apple controls.

They invite others to sell on that market, but made themselves gatekeeper and simultaneously a player there, controlling the rules of that market in its favor.

Market forces are unable to flow freely, to the point that it affects the "parent" market (in which the iPhone/iPad competes with others) as well as other markets (where other Hardware and Services are sold).

Their closed market reached a significant size now, so it should be reasonable to step in and ensure fair competition also there.

But thanks to those layers of abstraction, billions of dollar in lobbying and marketing, there is always room to argue that ensuring that free market is unjust, hinders innovation, restricts Apple from competing, etc.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#467

Post by palata »

FredPret wrote: post #185
palata wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that app developers can't ignore iOS because the market is too big. Therefore Apple can do whatever they want and developer have to accept their condition. As a developer, there is no choice. Apple should not be able to abuse their dominant position.

The problem with this is in the very definition of what it means to be an "app" developer. You say "app" and most people immediately understand you mean the iPhone or Android kind, with all that entails. These companies have been dominating the landscape for decades now, most likely for longer than most app developers have been app developers. As a developer, there's definitely a choice: don't make an iPhone app; don…

> If you say you want access to the walled garden because that's where the people are, then consider that they are in there because they like the walls.

I disagree there. Most people I know who have an iPhone didn't choose Apple because they like walls. There are many other reasons to choose Apple other than "I like getting screwed by TooBigTech".

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#468

Post by FirmwareBurner »

onion2k wrote: post #458
microtherion wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in a way it's a rather good argument. But if you take it to its conclusion, if Apple finds it harder and harder to monetize the App Store through fees, then THEY might eventually decide to switch to privacy violating advertising as their revenue strategy.

At that point consumers would be free to make a choice to switch away from Apple if they value their privacy enough. The problem right now is that Apple is 'abusing' the fact that privacy-aware consumers are drawn to their platform to charge onerous fees to app developers. They're leveraging their (de facto) monopoly on high-end mobile privacy-aware devices to restrict competition in mobile app fee charging. It's tha…

>At that point consumers would be free to make a choice to switch away from Apple if they value their privacy enough.

Consumers who spent hundreds of dollars in Appstore purchases and have 10+ years of photos, movies and data tied to Apple won't just suddenly leave all that and move to Android and start their digital life from scratch.

And the young consumers just starting their digital lives, are jumping in the ecosystem their friends and family already use (iMessage lock-in). It's basically not even your choice at that point, it's more that you're forced to.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#469

Post by trollbridge »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #410
rekoil wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree with this. Apple should be allowed to put whatever restrictions they want on apps in the App Store. The problem is they don't allow apps to come from anywhere else, this is the core of the issue and what everything eventually comes down to. Make it possible for users to control their own app installation sources on the hardware they own, show them what is happening when they do so, that they are replacin…

One reason that I support alternative (non-Apple) app stores, is that it allows differentiation between mediocre and higher-Quality apps. You can get your clothes from Target or Saks Fifth Avenue. For most folks, Target is fine, but there are people that insist on paying $30 for every pair of skivvies. I think that they should have that choice. If they can afford it, then let them eat cake (for the record, I tend to…

I think the answer is that if you want non-Apple app stores... get a non-Apple phone. For whatever reason, a great deal of people prefer to live inside Apple's walled garden.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#470

Post by trollbridge »

rekoil wrote: post #457
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason that I support alternative (non-Apple) app stores, is that it allows differentiation between mediocre and higher-Quality apps. You can get your clothes from Target or Saks Fifth Avenue. For most folks, Target is fine, but there are people that insist on paying $30 for every pair of skivvies. I think that they should have that choice. If they can afford it, then let them eat cake (for the record, I tend to…

> I’m a bit cynical on this, myself. I feel that Apple has been doing a great job of damaging their own brand, in the past few years. I feel as if the quality of their internal engineering has declined precipitously. Agreed. The quality of Apples own software has declined, as has the outcome of app reviews, there's never been as much crap on the App Store as there is today. And obviously Apple wants to "have their ca…

And if Apple keeps tolerating these declines in quality, they'll lose their advantage over Android, and create space for a third competitor.
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