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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#461

Post by flkenosad »

breppp wrote: post #398
Newtonip wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a state founded on ethnic cleansing. People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves. In late 1947, their militias begun a campaign of massacring and expelling Palestinians from mostly defenseless villages. These refuges pouring into neighboring Arab countries is what prompted the 1948 war. When the war ended, they murdered any civilians trying to return to their homes…

[flagged]

Judaism isn't an ethnicity. And I would agree those states are founded on the same ideals. All should be abolished.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#462

Post by FireBeyond »

beardedwizard wrote: post #457
alluro2 wrote: post #177

I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength. When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an e…

What are you actually expecting an average Israeli who does not agree with this to do? This comment strikes me as wild considering the exact same thing is playing out in America right now, and a bunch of people are making up their minds about "Americans" and what they stand for. The same has been true for Iran, only up until now (and probably still) we have always had a more nuanced discussion - its the Iranian gover…

> What are you actually expecting an average Israeli who does not agree with this to do?

Funny you say this because you don’t have to look far for people saying that “Gazans deserve what’s happening” because the average Gazan should fight back against Hamas.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#463

Post by judahmeek »

xg15 wrote: post #222
lottin wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it even mean 'to want nothing more than to end the conflict'? As far as I can tell it doesn't mean anything. Everybody wants the conflict to end, including the Israelis and the Palestinians. They just want it to end differently, of course.

In theory, we want to end it through the Two-State Solution (though even what this means is vague - certainty not the borders of 1967 that Palestinians and Arabs are demanding) But yeah, in practice, we seem to want it to end with full Israeli dominance, and the Palestinians either emigrating to Egypt and Jordan or vanishing into thin air, I suppose.

At this point, I think the Two-State Solution has proven to be incredibly naive.

As long as there are outside forces, such as Iran, willing to embed & fund militants among the Gazan population, the -only- practical solution towards peace is assimilation: have Gazans broken up & spread out through Israel until law enforcement can be practically achieved.

Now assimilation sucks & will likely result in all sorts of social injustice, but I consider it a better alternative to the current ethnic cleansing.

EDIT: @casspipe suggested the option of subsidized resettlement and I agree that is another option that should be explored.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#464

Post by rurp »

mjevans wrote: post #319
xg15 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, we want to end it through the Two-State Solution (though even what this means is vague - certainty not the borders of 1967 that Palestinians and Arabs are demanding) But yeah, in practice, we seem to want it to end with full Israeli dominance, and the Palestinians either emigrating to Egypt and Jordan or vanishing into thin air, I suppose.

I'd like better news coverage of that: What exactly ARE the goals / demands of every side. Both what they say in public, and what's generally accepted as the rational real goals each side requests / demands / etc via peace talks as well as through violence. The breakdown could even focus on factions within the nebulous term of 'sides'. An average citizen is likely to have looser criteria than a government / terrorist…

Unfortunately this Israeli government has consisently refused to articulate any sort of positive goal. Netanyahu is only publicly against things. He is adamant about preventing a Palestinian state and crippling Iran, but seems to have no plan for what should happen in Palestine, hence the seemingly endless horrible situation there.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#465

Post by keutoi »

anton-c wrote: post #422
maeil wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

There is some denial about the crimes committed by Imperial Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_...

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#466

Post by Ray20 »

anton-c wrote: post #422
maeil wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

>As part of a lesson, they were banned having an army >They have powerful army anyway >Millions of Koreans live in constant fear of the power and brutality of their army

Japan obviously learn nothing.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#467

Post by hattimaTim »

Gareth321 wrote: post #50

There has been so much disinformation, misinformation, and propaganda from so many nations and interested parties that I find it impossible to believe any claims anymore without seeing a video for myself. In this case, there are none. Even according to the article, the soldiers were ordered to fire on looters, which seems reasonable in the context of this war.

I doubt you will believe even if you see a video. You will probably think it is fake.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#468

Post by dghlsakjg »

xg15 wrote: post #417
dghlsakjg wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). I understand that you are talking about the recent era, but I wonder if you could speak to the history of the creation of Israel, and the German perception of that. Is there any discussion about the European role in the creation of Israel? After the end of the war, it isn’t as if the…

From my experience, the history of Israel as discussed in the media usually begins in 1948. A standard phrase is "The state was founded and immediately declared war at". Sometimes discussion goes back a bit further about how the area was a "League of Nations Mandatory Area" before, that was for some reason was administered by the British. That's usually it. An interesting detail is that the legitimacy of Israel here…

That's a whole other fork of the story.

I was basically getting at how does Europe see its role in the fact that a big part of what made Israel possible was the more or less complete displacement of European jewry during the war, and the complete lack of will to create a place in post-war europe for their own Jewish community.

This perspective comes from my own family history where a few relatives managed to survive the war in Nazi custody, but then spent longer in Western European refugee camps postwar than they spent in the concentration and death camps during the war. The entire family ended up outside of Europe (USA and Israel) since it was the most viable path out of the camps.

Basically the success of Zionism is due in no small part to the active support from Europe in the years after the war, and my question is, do Europeans see that in as self-interested terms as it can look. More succinctly, does the Western European community realize that creating Israel was a solution to the post-war "Jewish Problem" that conveniently did not require those nations to create a hospitable place for jewish communities within their own borders.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#469

Post by wat10000 »

anton-c wrote: post #429
wat10000 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be, but that doesn’t really matter in the end. Support is support.

You were judging the morality of the people in your above comment. Being manipulated into giving support doesn't make the people bad.

At some point people have to be responsible for themselves if the concept of responsibility is to have any meaning at all. Our views and actions are all the product of our environment.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#470

Post by newsclues »

Yasuraka wrote: post #349
newsclues wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between shooting people and firing warning shots.

How do warning shots kill over 50 people in a day?

War zone in a dense urban areas where combatants aren’t identified by uniform and are integrated in the civilian population.
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