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The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

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Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#461
post #243
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "More powerful than Linux" is silly. It's a VM. I don't think it's silly. Sure, it's a VM, but it's so nice that I barely reboot into Linux. You get the best of both worlds with WSL.

For me, the best part of running Linux as the base OS is not having to deal with Windows. No ridiculous start menu spam; a sane, non-bloated operating system (imagine being able to update user space libraries without a reboot, due to being able to delete files that other processes still have opened!); being able to back up my data at the file level without relying on weird block-level imaging shenanigans and so much…

> For me, the best part of running Linux as the base OS is not having to deal with Windows.

This is correct, but let's not pretend that linux is perfect. 99% of linux _for me_ is my terminal environment. WSL delivers on that _for me_.

I don't see any start menu spam because I rarely use it, when I do I type what I'm looking for before my eyes even move to look at that start menu.

oh, I can play destiny 2 and other games without shenanigans. Also don't need to figure out why Slack wants to open links in chromium, but discord in firefox (I have to deal with edge asking to be a default browser, but IMO it's less annoying).

Oh and multi-monitor with multiple DPI values works out of the box without looking up how to handle it in one of the frameworks this app uses.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#462
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if they think that this version of Linux "isn't janky" but regular Linux is, than idk what to say.

With WSL you can use “Linux the good parts” (command line tools, efficient-enough paradigms for fork() servers) and completely avoid X Windows, the Wayland death spiral, 100 revisions of Gnome and KDE that not so much reinvent the wheel but instead show us why the wheel is not square or triangular…

It's all opinion of course, but IMO Windows is the most clumsy and unintuitive desktop experience out there. We're all just used to the jank upon jank that we think it's intuitive.

KDE is much more cohesive, stable, and has significantly more features.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#463
post #7

Every time I praise WSL on hn I pay the karma tax but I will die on this hill. WSL is more powerful than Linux because of how easy it is to run multiple OS on the same computer simultaneously. It's as powerful as Linux with some janky custom local docker wrappers for device support, local storage mapping, and network mapping. Except it's not janky at all. It's an absolute delight to use, out of the box, on a desktop…

My only big gripe with WSL right now is GUI applications. wslg is not good, and the only good experience is when applications have a good remote development UX such as vscode. Another, smaller, gripe is networking. Because of how WSL is networked, I've run into edge-case issues with connecting to networked applications running in WSL from Windows.

You need to make sure that they use Wayland. Running X11 apps is significantly slower in wslg. Native Wayland apps run much faster.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#464
post #58

OT but the name irks me; Windows subsystem for Linux makes it sound like some sort of official Wine layer. It's a Linux subsystem for Windows if anything. It makes it sound like Microsoft is giving some capability to Linux whereas it's the other way around.

Microsoft can't name a project leading with a trademark (Linux ), hence why it's called WSL. Source: https://x.com/richturn_ms/status/1245481405947076610?s=19

They should not presume to trademark something called a "Linux subsystem for Windows".

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#465
post #7

Every time I praise WSL on hn I pay the karma tax but I will die on this hill. WSL is more powerful than Linux because of how easy it is to run multiple OS on the same computer simultaneously. It's as powerful as Linux with some janky custom local docker wrappers for device support, local storage mapping, and network mapping. Except it's not janky at all. It's an absolute delight to use, out of the box, on a desktop…

> Every time I praise WSL on hn I pay the karma tax

Hmm...

> WSL is more powerful than Linux

Oh.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#466

I would do it the other way round: use Windows in a virtual machine from Linux. If you are in Windows and have the urge to use Linux, do the proper switch once and for all. You will never look back. I haven't in almost 15 years. Given what Windows has become and already discussed here on HN I would even hesitate to run it in a virtual machine. Edit: more than 15 years.

Except that if you require anything that is GPU-related (like gaming, Adobe suite apps, etc) you'll need to have a secondary GPU to passthrough it to the VM, which is not something that everyone has. So, if you don't have a secondary GPU, you'll need to live without graphics acceleration in the VM... so for a lot of people the "oh you just need to use a VM!" solution is not feasible, because most of the software that…

Tried doing 3d modeling in a Windows VM - couldn't get acceleration to pass through.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#467

Copying files between Windows and WSL is EXTREMELY slow. I really wanted to give Windows a chance but the slowness completely destroyed that chance, along with the lack of hardware acceleration for GUI applications.

See if the trick in this article helps out: https://pomeroy.me/2023/12/how-i-fixed-wsl-2-filesystem-perf...

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#468
post #7

Every time I praise WSL on hn I pay the karma tax but I will die on this hill. WSL is more powerful than Linux because of how easy it is to run multiple OS on the same computer simultaneously. It's as powerful as Linux with some janky custom local docker wrappers for device support, local storage mapping, and network mapping. Except it's not janky at all. It's an absolute delight to use, out of the box, on a desktop…

Running a Linux VM on Windows is nicer than just booting into Linux? That's quite a take. Windows is so user-hostile these days that I feel bad for those who have to deal with it. Calling it delightful must be symptomatic of some sort of Stockholm syndrome.

> Running a Linux VM on Windows is nicer than just booting into Linux

Indeed, it does. Having stable system and not dealing with Linux on Desktop, clear tradoffs (like "just add another 16gb RAM stick in laptop/desktop and you are golden") is great for peace of mind.

The average uptimes on my laptops (note for plural) is ~3 weeks, until next Windows Update to be applied. I don't have nostalgia on the days of using Linux on desktop (~2003 student times, ~2008 giving it one more try, ~2015 as required by dayjob)

Of course it adds up that I can tell people around me (who are not tech guys often, but smart enough to know basic concepts and be able to run bash scripts provided to them) - "yep, machine with 32GB+ of RAM will work fine, choose any you like" - and it works.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#469
post #274
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"More powerful than Linux" is silly. It's a VM. The most useful thing is that it does a bunch of convenience features for you. I am not suggesting that it is not extremely convenient, but it's not somehow more powerful than just using Linux. You know what's even more convenient than a VM? Not needing a VM and still having the exact same functionality. And you don't need a bunch of janky wrapper scripts, there's more…

The integration between Windows and the WSL VM is far deeper than a typical VM hypervisor. You cannot claim with a straight face that Virtualbox is easier to use.

> The integration between Windows and the WSL VM is far deeper than a typical VM hypervisor.

Sure, but I never claimed otherwise.

> You cannot claim with a straight face that Virtualbox is easier to use.

I also didn't claim that. I wasn't comparing WSL to other virtualization solutions.

WSL2 is cool. Linux doesn't have a tool like WSL2 that manages Linux virtual machines.

The catch 22 is that it doesn't need one. If you want to drop a shell in a virtual environment Linux can do that six ways through Sunday with no hardware VM in sight using the myriad of namespacing technologies available.

So while you don't have WSL2 on Linux, you don't need it. If you just want a ubuntu2204 shell or something, and you want it to magically work, you don't need a huge thing with tons of integration like WSL2. A standalone program can provide all of the functionality.

I have a feeling people might actually be legitimately skeptical. Let me prove this out. I am on NixOS, on a machine that does not have distrobox. It's not even installed, and I don't really have to install it since it's just a simple standalone program. I will do:

    $ nix run nixpkgs#distrobox enter

Here's what happened:

    $ nix run nixpkgs#distrobox enter
    Error: no such container my-distrobox
    Create it now, out of image registry.fedoraproject.org/fedora-toolbox:latest? [Y/n]: Y
    Creating the container my-distrobox
    Trying to pull registry.fedoraproject.org/fedora-toolbox:latest...
    ...
    0f3de909e96d48bd294d138b1a525a6a22621f38cb775a991974313eda1a4119
    Creating 'my-distrobox' using image registry.fedoraproject.org/fedora-toolbox:latest [ OK ]
    Distrobox 'my-distrobox' successfully created.
    To enter, run:

    distrobox enter my-distrobox

    Starting container...                    [ OK ]
    Installing basic packages...             [ OK ]
    Setting up devpts mounts...              [ OK ]
    Setting up read-only mounts...           [ OK ]
    Setting up read-write mounts...          [ OK ]
    Setting up host's sockets integration... [ OK ]
    Integrating host's themes, icons, fonts... [ OK ]
    Setting up distrobox profile...          [ OK ]
    Setting up sudo...                       [ OK ]
    Setting up user groups...                [ OK ]
    Setting up user's group list...          [ OK ]
    Setting up existing user...              [ OK ]
    Ensuring user's access...                [ OK ]

    Container Setup Complete!
    [john@my-distrobox]~% sudo yum install glxgears
    ...
    Complete!
    [john@my-distrobox]~% glxgears
    Running synchronized to the vertical refresh.  The framerate should be
    approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate.
    302 frames in 5.0 seconds = 60.261 FPS
    ^C
No steps omitted. I can install software, including desktop software, including things that need hardware acceleration (yep, even on NixOS where everything is weird) and just run them. There's nothing to configure at all.

That's just Fedora. WSL can run a lot of distros, including Ubuntu. Of course, you can do the same thing with Distrobox. Is it hard? Let's find out by using Ubuntu 22.04 instead, with console output omitted:

   $ distrobox create --image ubuntu:22.04
   ...
   $ distrobox enter ubuntu-22-04
   ...
   $ sudo apt install openarena
   ...
   $ /usr/games/openarena
To be completely, 100% fair: running an old version of Ubuntu like this does actually have one downside: it triggers OpenGL software rendering for me, because the OpenGL drivers in Ubuntu 22.04 are too old to support my relatively new RX 9070 XT. You'd need to install or copy in newer drivers to make it work. There are in fact ways to do that (Ubuntu has no shortage of repos just for getting more up-to-date drivers and they work inside Distrobox pretty much the same way they work in real hardware.) Amusingly, this problem doesn't impact NVIDIA since you can just tell distrobox to copy in the NVIDIA driver verbatim with the --nvidia flag. (One of the few major points in favor of proprietary drivers, I suppose.)

On the other hand, even trying pretty hard (and using special drivers) I could never get hardware acceleration for OpenGL working inside of WSL2, so it could be worse.

That aside, everything works. More complex applications (e.g. file browsers, Krita, Blender) work just fine and you get your normal home folder mapped in just like you'd expect.

Re: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is now open source

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Microsoft losing the mind share has anything to do with software. Macbooks are winning the laptop war because of superior hardware.

>Macbooks are winning the laptop war because of superior hardware. No. This is just you repeating marketing. No Nvidia chip = B tier at best. I have a $700 Asus with a 3060 that is better. Go ahead and scale up to a $2000 computer with an Nvidia chip and its so obviously better, there is nothing to debate. No one cares about performance per watt, its like someone ran a 5k race, came in 3rd and said "Well at least I b…

Well, I'll have to hardly disagree. You want a laptop that its battery life is not 1 hour at best. That wasn't a thing in Windows/Linux laptops until M1 started using arm64. 6 Hours of intense work? Good luck with that.

Not only that, but being able to run very intensive work (Pro Audio, Development...) seamlessly is an absolute pleasure.

Its screen is one of the best screens out there.

The trackpad (and some keyboards) are an absolute pleasure.

The robustness of the laptop is amazing.

I don't care about the marketing of Apple, I don't buy anything new they launch, and I condemn all of their obscure pricing techniques for the tech they sell. But my M1 is rocking like the first day, after four years of daily use. That's something my Windows laptops have never delivered to me.

Apple has done a lot of things wrong, and I will not buy another Apple laptop in the future, but I don't want Nvidia on a Laptop, I want it to be portable, powerful and durable.

That is changing now, and it's amazing. I want my laptop to be mine, and to be able to install any OS I like. New laptops with arm64 and Intel Lake cpus are promissing, but we're not there yet, at least not that I have experienced.

Each to their own for sure, and for you, the nvidia requisite is important. For me it's not about brands, but usability for my work and hobbies.

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