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Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

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Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#461

Post by x0x0 »

cosmicgadget wrote: post #13
x0x0 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a lot cheaper to pay one exec a couple million than to staff a medium-sized software engineering org: even 500 people at an average fully burdened cost of $250k is $125m/y.

Yeah I get this is their calculus and am suggesting it's exactly why they are failing.

I wasn't disagreeing with you; I idly did the mental math, was surprised at how high it was, then thought through how I'd probably finger-in-the-air that it would take a couple thousand eng years to build a whole car OS. You're building safety critical software, so you're going to start with a very serious test effort, etc. So finger in the air a good chunk of a billion dollars a year for many years.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#462

Post by smilekzs »

PeterStuer wrote: post #21
cosmicgadget wrote: post #4

> These legacy companies have poached big hitters from Apple, Tesla and Google. They’ve sunk billions into it. Part of the problem might be poaching high title people from embedded tech companies while not doing anything for developer compensation.

Old car is massive amounts of mechanotechnical engineering, with some software for keeping the beast under control and provide some basic entertainement. New car is basically a computer on a simple chassis with an equally simple drive train. Software and battery tech is everything.

I'd argue that chassis tech is more sophisticated in the BEV case due to more weight. Adaptive dampers, air springs, rear-axle steering, etc. might not be necessary on a comparably sized ICE vehicle.

OTOH, ABS and ESP systems can achieve similar or even better results with less complexity because motor torque control is inherently low-latency, which can also complement brake deployment (hydraulics is not as well behaved as e-motor).

You do get rid of emissions control and tiny little sensors / flap actuators sprinkled all around the engine bay, so yeah, probably overall still a simplification win, but I doubt you can get very far without "massive amounts of [Mechatronics] engineering".

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#463

Post by Izikiel43 »

shostack wrote: post #317
anon7000 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazda has done a great job at this so far, very minimal screen which automatically just shows CarPlay, and buttons for all the normal car stuff, which also isn’t overdone. The only flaw is the scroll wheel to interact with the screen, which is just slightly too clunky in apps with too many options

Generally agree but they are laying the path to enshitification. You see you can get turn by turn directions on the HUD, but only through their app where they want you to pay $10/mo for the privilege. Same for inputting addresses into their crappy nav system. So I only use Google maps with Android Auto now, but cannot put the turn by turn display on. Also, who knows what telemetry Mazda is sending home on me without…

Really? I rented a cx90 with hud and with CarPlay and Apple Maps I think it had turn by turn directions

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#464

Post by owenversteeg »

cyberax wrote: post #448
owenversteeg wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>112 eCall is not a black box. It does not record constantly the position of the vehicle, it records only a few data to determine the position and direction of the vehicle just before the crash and these data are only transmitted to emergency call centers if there is a serious crash. That statement is factually inconsistent. Either 112 eCall incorporates a time travel device or it must constantly record the position…

> That statement is factually inconsistent. It's not. It just stores the last speed/wheel position/brake state data that it receives when the "collision imminent" condition activates. In some cars this can be literally the same signal that deploys the airbags. > Look, the European Commission stated that it cannot be hacked Pretty much. It's just a normal LTE radio, that is normally inactive. It technically is hackabl…

Sorry, that's incorrect. I have actually read the law and its relevant standards. The standard requires at least two pre-accident locations to increase accuracy and other fields with pre-crash data are encouraged.

And come on. Car manufacturers, which are notorious producers of insecure software, are legally mandated to make an inexpensive device which includes an LTE radio and a connection to the vehicle buses, and you think that is... unhackable? I can't tell if you're trolling me, but your average blackhat only needs 1 of (shitty car OEM software/LTE radio/vehicle bus connected device) to break into a system. This system is a trifecta of hackable crap. To call that, of all devices, "unhackable" is priceless.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#465

Post by lotsofpulp »

metadat wrote: post #420
brightball wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was encouraging to hear an exec from Ford recently say essentially this in an interview. The legacy manufacturers seem to realize that Tesla is eating their lunch because of their lack of vertical integration. It’s not going to be an easy problem to solve but will be interesting to see what effort achieves.

[flagged]

https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-first-quarter-2025-...

Apparently, 300k+ people in 2025 Q1, and that is with a refresh in the most popular model happening in March (presumably people who would have bought held off until the new one came out and will buy in Q2 or beyond).

For comparison, this is 2024 Q1:

https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-vehicle-production-...

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#466

Post by homefree »

tw04 wrote: post #290
latchkey wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting IG videos in my feed for a company that sells after market fixes because older Teslas have such poorly designed electronics, that they fail in common ways. The memory goes bad because they write useless logs to a chip, and it eventually fails. End users are beta testing... https://www.instagram.com/reel/DINADISyP0f/

That’s always been the case with Tesla. I still have no idea how the yoke with no progressive steering and a tiny button for a horn ever passed any sanity check. Not to mention the NHTSA.

[flagged]

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#467

Post by lmm »

jim180 wrote: post #129
ta1243 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My car randomly braked today because it thought a car on a side road was pulling out. Not just sound the alarm but actually apply the brakes. Fortunately I didn't have a tailgater behind me. I disable the "land assist" every time (which often tries to steer me into wildlife or other cars and was clearly not built for use on a single track country roads with hedges and random verges), but this was the first time in 3…

Same thing happened to my wife, while driving at about 110km/h…luckily no one was behind her.

Braking at any point is safe with a competent driver behind. There's a reason we know our stopping distances and don't follow excessively closely.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#468

Post by unethical_ban »

>Now, they need to make compelling apps, slick new features and all-new electrical architectures that neither the companies nor their suppliers are used to using. They need to build Tesla-level upgradeability with far less willingness to ship unfinished goods, all while tucking it behind a military-grade firewall to ensure your car can’t be remotely hacked.

Did the market demand this? Does safety? Fuel efficiency?

I'm holding onto my 2014 vehicle precisely because of this over the air update, constant tracking bullshit.

If you can't deliver a reliable car without needing to patch it weekly, I don't want it.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#469

Post by rossjudson »

homefree wrote: post #466
tw04 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s always been the case with Tesla. I still have no idea how the yoke with no progressive steering and a tiny button for a horn ever passed any sanity check. Not to mention the NHTSA.

[flagged]

It makes me sad that a bunch of people who've never used/adjusted to the Tesla yoke are all but guaranteeing (via whining) that yokes are going to disappear. The yoke is great after you've adjusted to it, and I don't care about proportional steering at all. That's complexity I don't need.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#470

Post by lotsofpulp »

Alive-in-2025 wrote: post #456
brightball wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was encouraging to hear an exec from Ford recently say essentially this in an interview. The legacy manufacturers seem to realize that Tesla is eating their lunch because of their lack of vertical integration. It’s not going to be an easy problem to solve but will be interesting to see what effort achieves.

Tesla was eating their lunch in terms of software, integration, capabilities, apps. Then rivian came along and a few other companies doing a much better job than the awful legacy companies. Now of course tesla/musk are destroying themselves through various idiotic actions. Sales are dropping through the roof. But the technical quality of the software ecosystem (car, web, app) is still better than all the incumbents.…

Rivians and Lucids cost tens of thousands of dollars more than 95% (not an exaggeration) of Teslas. Completely different markets (and size of market).
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